The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4) questions)
The Urth list — 5 messages, 5 voices, 21 Feb 2006
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4538

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Tony Ellis — 21 Feb 2006, 19:08

> Duncan wrote:
> 1: what happened at the piteous gate? there was a riot,
> there were clone soldiers...

The explanation for this has cropped up a few times in the list,
actually, but since it's my explanation I'm happy to repeat it. :-)

The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to
use the roads of commonwealth. 

We're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on his
journey. Master Palaemon tells us: "...there is a redoubt, so I've
heard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans under
orders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have permission to
loot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask
excuses." Shadow, XIII

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mournings glory — 21 Feb 2006, 19:51
  in reply to Tony Ellis

Mr. Ellis writes:

> The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to
> use the roads of commonwealth.
> 
> We're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on his
> journey. Master Palaemon tells us: "...there is a redoubt, so I've
> heard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans under
> orders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have permission to
> loot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask
> excuses." Shadow, XIII

Here's something I don't understand, however.

If it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are all these people 
planning to get to where they're going? On the day in question Severian 
claims the highway leading to the Piteous Gate is "*crowded* with carts and 
wagons and traffic of all kinds." Surely, most of these people are aware 
that traffic is prohibited on the Commonwealth's roads. So what will they do 
once they've passed beyond the Gate? Jump into the Gyoll and start swimming? 
(River traffic does seem to be tolerated.) Melt into the woods and follow 
crude dirt paths--with carts and wagons and beasts of burden? Hide in the 
bushes whenever they sense a uhlan nears?

Moreover, if such a wide variety of traffic is allowed to exit and travel 
beyond Nessus by whatever means, doesn't this simply circumvent the law that 
made road travel illegal in the first place? Wouldn't, in fact, if the law 
were strictly followed, most people be turned away at the Gate? Apparently 
not, since enough people are aware they can reach their destinations via 
alternate means -- which in effect makes the prohibition useless anyway.

"We have closed the roads to paralyze the social order," the old autarch 
tells Severian. Methinks he needs to look again.

msg

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Rob Davies — 21 Feb 2006, 19:55
  follows, by subject match mournings glory

> > Duncan wrote:
> > 1: what happened at the piteous gate? there was a riot,
> > there were clone soldiers...

> Tony wrote:
> The explanation for this has cropped up a few times in the list,
> actually, but since it's my explanation I'm happy to repeat it. :-)
> 
> The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to
> use the roads of commonwealth. 

I find this explanation a bit odd. Why have a gate if no one is allowed to use the road to pass through it?

Rob

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Transentient — 21 Feb 2006, 21:20
  in reply to mournings glory

> On Feb 21, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mournings glory wrote:
> Mr. Ellis writes:

> > The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to
> > use the roads of commonwealth.
> > 
> > We're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on  
> > his
> > journey. Master Palaemon tells us: "...there is a redoubt, so I've
> > heard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans  
> > under
> > orders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have  
> > permission to
> > loot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask
> > excuses." Shadow, XIII

> Here's something I don't understand, however.
> 
> If it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are all these  
> people
> planning to get to where they're going? On the day in question  
> Severian
> claims the highway leading to the Piteous Gate is "*crowded* with  
> carts and
> wagons and traffic of all kinds." Surely, most of these people are  
> aware
> that traffic is prohibited on the Commonwealth's roads. So what  
> will they do
> once they've passed beyond the Gate? Jump into the Gyoll and start  
> swimming?
> (River traffic does seem to be tolerated.) Melt into the woods and  
> follow
> crude dirt paths--with carts and wagons and beasts of burden? Hide  
> in the
> bushes whenever they sense a uhlan nears?
> 
> Moreover, if such a wide variety of traffic is allowed to exit and  
> travel
> beyond Nessus by whatever means, doesn't this simply circumvent the  
> law that
> made road travel illegal in the first place? Wouldn't, in fact, if  
> the law
> were strictly followed, most people be turned away at the Gate?  
> Apparently
> not, since enough people are aware they can reach their  
> destinations via
> alternate means -- which in effect makes the prohibition useless  
> anyway.
> 
> "We have closed the roads to paralyze the social order," the old  
> autarch
> tells Severian. Methinks he needs to look again.

But it certainly doesn't make sense that there is a society of people  
descended from petitioners, living out their whole lives in a waiting  
room at the House Absolute, living off of danishes and coffee!

So, perhaps it was an order issued some time ago, and over time it  
has simply become an entrenched dynamic in the Commonwealth. The  
uhlans clearly don't enforce it in an efficient or organized manner,  
or people would never try to use the highways or gates.

Maybe the uhlans - are they the regular military? - are stretched so  
thin with the constant war that they can't spare the troops to  
enforce the rule efficiently; units are rotated back to Nessus so  
infrequently that the desperate people get to risking the roads  
again, and any uhlans who encounter them enjoy some fine sport, then  
loot the bodies, and that's how things are. Or perhaps the officers  
purposely wait until there are a lot of people hazarding the roads,  
and then hit them and split up the booty.

Either way, it is a situation a lot like Nessus, and the BOTNS  
itself: new orders built upon the old without the old being resolved  
or understood. A theme is laid down and it takes on a new life and a  
new meaning.

Like that one episode of Bablyon 5 where Londo was explaining the  
danger that a crazed emporer posed to the Centarui Republic: he  
related how many centuries ago a princess had discovered a single  
flower sprouting from the palace grounds in the middle of winter, and  
had ordered the palace guard to place someone next to it to keep it  
from being stepped on. The flower was long since gone but the palace  
guard still placed a soldier in that same spot to the present day.

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Chris — 21 Feb 2006, 22:02
  in reply to Rob Davies

The road is officially devoted to military use, the transportation of troops 
and supplies, so that is what the gate is for.

I find all arguments about what happened at the Piteous Gate to be a bit 
tenuous, but here are a couple things which make a certain amount of common 
sense to me at any rate.

Even if the uhlans are authorized to plunder anyone on the road, it would 
probably not be profitable for them to do so (because then nobody would ever 
use the road). The profitable way to approach it is to leave people alone 
for the most part and not enforce the rule - this also happens to be good 
for the economy - which would encourage people to go ahead and use the road, 
even if they are aware that there is some small risk involved. Then, every 
once in a while, you come down and enforce it; and when you do so, you will 
end up with a huge haul rather than a couple stray travellers here and 
there.

> Duncan wrote:

> > > 1: what happened at the piteous gate? there was a riot,
> > > there were clone soldiers...

> Tony wrote:

> > The explanation for this has cropped up a few times in the list,
> > actually, but since it's my explanation I'm happy to repeat it. :-)
> > 
> > The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to
> > use the roads of commonwealth.

> I find this explanation a bit odd. Why have a gate if no one is allowed to 
> use the road to pass through it?
> 
> Rob
> _______________________________________________

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