{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4539", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4539, "subject": "The Piteous Gate", "messages": 21, "voices": 11, "first": "2006-02-21T23:30:51+00:00", "last": "2006-02-28T15:25:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000001c6373e$da2ab5d0$6601a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-02-21T23:30:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mournings glory wrote:\nIf it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are \nall these people planning to get to where they're going?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Rob Davies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why have a gate if no one is allowed to use the road to \npass through it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris's post - that the law is only enforced now and then - answers both\nthese points.\n\nIndeed, it could hardly be enforced any other way. Travel is not\nforbidden. The law, we are told, simply demands that you travel across\nthe countryside. You leave the city then get off the road as fast as you\ncan. Only in this particular instance there was a patrol of uhlans\nwaiting." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-22T02:08:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6373e$da2ab5d0$6601a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mournings glory wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are\nall these people planning to get to where they're going?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Rob Davies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why have a gate if no one is allowed to use the road to\npass through it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris's post - that the law is only enforced now and then - answers both\nthese points.\n\nIndeed, it could hardly be enforced any other way. Travel is not\nforbidden. The law, we are told, simply demands that you travel across\nthe countryside. You leave the city then get off the road as fast as you\ncan. Only in this particular instance there was a patrol of uhlans\nwaiting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems somewhat contradicted by what Severian is told by Master Palaemon \nin Chapter 13 of -Shadow_ (part of which has already been quoted).\n\n******************\n\n\"You know of the roads?\"\n\n\"I know they must not be used. Nothing more.\"\n\n\"The Autarch Maruthas closed them. That was when I was your age. Travel\nencouraged sedition, and he wished goods to enter and leave the city by the\nriver, where they might be easily taxed. *The law has remained in force \nsince,*\nand there is a redoubt, so I've heard, every fifty leagues. Still the roads\nremain. Though they are in poor repair, it is said some use them by night.\"\n\n\"I see,\" I said. Closed or not, the roads might make for an easier passage \nthan\ntraveling across the countryside as the law demanded.\n\n\"I doubt you do. I mean to warn you against them. They are patrolled by \nuhlans\nunder orders to kill anyone found upon them, and since they have permission \nto\nloot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask \nexcuses.\"\n\n***************\n\nNotice how Palaemon says nothing about how you might be able to use the \nroads if you wish to indulge in travel Russian-roulette style. So while \nChris's notion has a certain appeal to it, there is absolutely no evidence \nthat the uhlans only selectively enforce the law when they feel like it. In \nfact, the only time we hear that travel by road is otherwise expressly \npermitted by day is in the war zone, although apparently the Pelerines can \nprovide safe conduct.\n\nAlso, why we're discussing the ending of _Shadow_ I still do not understand \nthe purpose of the Autarch's pandours--the cacogen warriors who stand watch \ninside the honeycombed Wall. Dr. Talos thinks they're looking for a specific \nmiscreant (Osama Binlanders? Feh!) But Jonas's tale of the black beans seems \nto hint at the Megatherians. The fact that they're aliens as opposed to \nhumans puzzles me too, especially since the only other aliens we meet are \nFather Inire, the Cumaean, and Ossipago, Barbatus and Famulimus--all \nHeirodules. Are the pandours from Yesod as well? And is it Father Inire they \nobey and not the Autarch? Aren't the cacogens generally disliked/feared? And \nwhat is it they're on the watch for that humans couldn't detect? The \nAscians--who are far to the north? Or something even more dastardly?\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-22T02:41:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2/21/06, mournings glory wrote:\n...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, why we're discussing the ending of _Shadow_ I still do not understand\nthe purpose of the Autarch's pandours--the cacogen warriors who stand watch\ninside the honeycombed Wall. Dr. Talos thinks they're looking for a specific\nmiscreant (Osama Binlanders? Feh!) But Jonas's tale of the black beans seems\nto hint at the Megatherians. The fact that they're aliens as opposed to\nhumans puzzles me too, especially since the only other aliens we meet are\nFather Inire, the Cumaean, and Ossipago, Barbatus and Famulimus--all\nHeirodules. Are the pandours from Yesod as well? And is it Father Inire they\nobey and not the Autarch? Aren't the cacogens generally disliked/feared? And\nwhat is it they're on the watch for that humans couldn't detect? The\nAscians--who are far to the north? Or something even more dastardly?\n\nem" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they are on watch for old things, revenants, things yet to be\nperhaps... like Jonas.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6377e$c26f0320$633ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-02-22T07:08:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "msg quoted and wrote:\nMr. Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to\nuse the roads of commonwealth.\n\nWe're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on his\njourney. Master Palaemon tells us: \"...there is a redoubt, so I've\nheard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans under\norders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have permission to\nloot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask\nexcuses.\" Shadow, XIII" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's something I don't understand, however.\n\nIf it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are all these people\nplanning to get to where they're going? On the day in question Severian\nclaims the highway leading to the Piteous Gate is \"*crowded* with carts and\nwagons and traffic of all kinds.\" Surely, most of these people are aware\nthat traffic is prohibited on the Commonwealth's roads. So what will they\ndo\nonce they've passed beyond the Gate? Jump into the Gyoll and start\nswimming?\n(River traffic does seem to be tolerated.) Melt into the woods and follow\ncrude dirt paths--with carts and wagons and beasts of burden? Hide in the\nbushes whenever they sense a uhlan nears?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question of what happened at the Piteous Gate has, indeed, been the\nsubject of sometimes heated debate here over the years. So far as I recall,\nhowever, Mr. Ellis is in the minority regarding his rather mundane\nexplanation. Most seem to believe that something happened to spook the\nstream of travelers just as Sev's party was entering the gate. Explanations\nfor the panic vary; naturally, I prefer my own, which is that Hethor\nprecipitated the panic, probably by unleashing one of his mirror beasts.\n\nI would have sworn that I made a rather longish post a few years ago about\nHethor, in the course of which I addressed this issue, but I can't seem to\nfind it in the archives. Maybe I only sent it to a couple of people. In any\nevent, here is the relevant paragraph from the original, fwiw.\n\n\"The dialogue at Casdoe's also goes a long way toward explaining the why, if\nnot the exact how, of the events at the Piteous Gate. Sev notes, in SWORD,\nhow Hethor never seemed to come near him when Jonas was close by,\nspeculating that this was because Jonas, like Hethor, had been a sailor on a\nstarship, and that Hethor feared that Jonas might recognize him in some way.\nWhy Hethor should fear that recognition is another issue. Jonas makes his\nfirst appearance in the story as the company of players, Hethor with them,\nnears the city gate. As they enter the gate Hethor walks with his head down.\nMost of the speculation about why he does that centers on a supposed fear of\nbeing recognized by some authority watching from within the walls of the\ngate. I find that prospect doubtful. Dr. Talos's comment about the pandours\npossibly watching for a particular miscreant was aimed at Sev, not Hethor,\nbecause Sev had just told him that he had unfinished business with the\nPelerines in the city, whose tent-cathedral had just gone up in smoke. Given\nthe unreliability of space/time travel, some version of Space Rangers on the\nlookout for intergalactic desperadoes is untenable. I believe that Hethor is\ntrying to avoid the notice of Jonas, who has unexpectedly attached himself\nto the group, if only temporarily. Further, I believe that Hethor, possibly\nby means of one of his creatures, caused the disturbance within the gate for\ntwo reasons: one, to create a distraction so that Jonas would not notice\nhim, and, two, to possibly cause Sev's death, and/or Jonas', either by being\ntrampled in the stampede of vehicles and animals, as some were, or killed,\nas many more were when they were caught up in the panic and ran out onto the\nroad, by the soldiers stationed on the other side of the gate to keep people\noff the road. It was not a good plan, but it was the best he could do on the\nspur of the moment.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000401c6380e$1e447ba0$6601a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-02-23T00:14:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6377e$c26f0320$633ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mornings glory wrote:\nwhile Chris's notion has a certain appeal to it, there is absolutely\nno evidence that the uhlans only selectively enforce the law when\nthey feel like it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there is evidence in the fact that the Piteous Gate is packed with\na multitude of travellers - including experienced wanderers such as Dr\nTalos, Baldanders and Jonas. No one expresses any concern at taking this\nroute out of the city, so clearly most of the time the enforcement is at\nleast lax enough to allow people to enter and leave unmolested.\n\nI don't think the uhlans are necessarily being selective, however. The\nsimplest explanation is that there just aren't enough men to patrol 150\nmiles of open road properly, especially with a war on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nSo far as I recall,\nhowever, Mr. Ellis is in the minority regarding his rather mundane\nexplanation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I appreciate the smiley, Roy, but the fact is it's precisely because my\nexplanation is mundane that I think I'm right. I sometimes get the\nimpression that people feel some sort of inverse Occam's Razor principle\napplies to explaining the mysteries in Wolfe's work - that the more\nfantastic the theory, the more likely it is to be true. Crabtree's\nBludgeon springs to mind.\n\nIf you accept that the soldiers on the far side of the Gate are there to\nkeep people off the road, why do you need another explanation for the\ndisturbance that is taking place? A big crowd and a bunch of people\nfiring at it is all it takes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c63852$38db2ec0$563ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-02-23T08:21:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000401c6380e$1e447ba0$6601a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nWell, there is evidence in the fact that the Piteous Gate is packed with\na multitude of travellers - including experienced wanderers such as Dr\nTalos, Baldanders and Jonas. No one expresses any concern at taking this\nroute out of the city, so clearly most of the time the enforcement is at\nleast lax enough to allow people to enter and leave unmolested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that's part of the reason why what happened that morning at the Gate was\nso unusual. The large volume of travelers waiting to exit the city when the\ngates opened each morning indicates that they had no reasonable expectation\nof being slaughtered by mercenary troopers waiting for them outside the Gate\non the road. They would have to be idiots to routinely take such a chance,\nand many of the travelers were tradesmen, as indicated by the carts and\nwagons. It stands to reason that there was a similar volume of traffic each\nday streaming **into** the city. Those travelers waiting **outside** the\nWall for the Gate to open could, and would, have provided ample warning to\nthose exiting the city, had there been any unusual military presence to\ncause alarm.\n\nNo such warning was given. There had to be a common public area immediately\noutside the Gate, just as there was inside the Wall, where traffic could\nmove freely without having to use the forbidden road. The flow of outbound\ntraffic was moving steadily until something happened to panic the animals\nand people. Sev saw five armed riders on the road outside the Gate, with\npeople moving to either side of them, apparently going unmolested\ncross-country. The only people the riders killed were those who had panicked\nand who took off down the road. The five riders may have been waiting there\nsince before the Gate opened that morning; they may even have been routinely\nstationed there. It doesn't matter, because, regardless of whatever paths\nthe travelers normally took, either that day or any other, **they did not\nroutinely use the road**.\n\nThis fictive fact is proven on the first page of CLAW, where the road\noutside the Gate is described as \"grown up in fresh grass\". That road just\nwasn't traveled, regardless of how well it was patrolled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I sometimes get the\nimpression that people feel some sort of inverse Occam's Razor principle\napplies to explaining the mysteries in Wolfe's work - that the more\nfantastic the theory, the more likely it is to be true. Crabtree's\nBludgeon springs to mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Generally speaking, I agree with you!\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200602231219.k1NCJmrI031569@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-02-23T12:19:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c63852$38db2ec0$563ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:21:56 +1100 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nAnd that's part of the reason why what happened that morning at \nthe Gate was\nso unusual. The large volume of travelers waiting to exit the city " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "when the\ngates opened each morning indicates that they had no reasonable \nexpectation\nof being slaughtered by mercenary troopers waiting for them \noutside the Gate\non the road. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\nAnd if there wasn't a permitted space on the other side of the \ngate, why were the guards letting people through it in the first \nplace?\n\nI prefer the looking-for-Hethor theory. The only other time we see \na highway-guarding Uhlan in action, it's in Claw, when Sev by a \nstrategem causes the death of one by Hethor's notules. On \nresurrection, the uhlan says, \"I am to be especially vigilant\", no \ndoubt repeating his patrol orders. Perhaps the uhlans near the gate \nhad been given the same order, and perhaps the vigilance in both \ncases was directed against Hethor.\n\nOn Hethor: Jonas says the notules are used somewere in the universe \nfor ritual combat. This ties back into the monomachy with avens. \nIt's not hard to guess that Hethor taught Agia and her brother all \nabout them. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<003101c638ef$4cadb6f0$0501a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-02-24T03:06:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c63852$38db2ec0$563ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm torn. I find the \"Uhlan\" explanaition attractive since it is\nmundane and doesn't require the invention of an entire narrative that is not\nrefererence elsewhere.\n\nOn the otherhand, I understand why a more elaborate theory is sought. If the\nexplanation is so mundane, why cover it up? Why not mention it? Severian and\nJonas must have gotten some idea of what it was about by the time they\npassed the gate. But they didn't know at the end of SOTT. I reached the end\nof the fourth book convinced that there would be conversation that explained\nit. To no avail. I read UOTNS still hoping for a clue. Nope.\n\nIf they're looking for Severian, they didn't seem to find him because he and\nJonas go through all right. If they're looking for Hethor...well, I don't\nsee any evidence that he is on the run.Why wouldn't the possibility that\nthey are looking for Jonas be just as reasonable? After all, he's an\nexpensive piece of equipment. Or Baldanders! He and his butler seem to be on\nthe run. There are a heck of a lot of miscreants on that road. But they\ncould have gotten any of them better by waiting for to reach the end of the\ngate.\n\nIt was one of Hethor's pets? Come on. Nothing in the text says that; not\nthat I know of. And why release one in the middle of the gate. To release\none in that setting would be as dangerous for Hethor as anybody else. He\ncould release them almost anywhere else without as much danger. One\nexplanation, I guess, is that the authorities were on to Hethor and were\nabout to catch him so he released the pet to cause the confusion and get\naway. But typically when you're tracking someone (as Hethor is tracking\nSeverian), you follow BEHIND him so you can keep your eye on him. Up ahead\nis the wrong place for him.\n\nNothing so far satisfies me. I'm tempted to suggest that there is no Lupine\n\"explanation\". That it is just an awful traffic jam whose only narrative\npurpose is to split Sev and Jonas from the rest of their group. But Dorcas\n*says* that they are turning around because they are frightened.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-24T04:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<003101c638ef$4cadb6f0$0501a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, logically we can separate the \"how\" and the \"why\" of the Piteous Gate \nincident, and perhaps that will help. (Though as a side note I do not \nunderstand the sort of universal fascination with this incident - which \ndoesn't seem to be provoked by historical discussions on the list because it \nis shared by people who haven't read the archives - given that as far as I \ncan tell it isn't crucial to the overall interpretation of the story.)\n\nThe \"mundane\" aspect of the uhlans and the laws concerning the use of the \nroads can be considered a fully adequate explanation as to how the incident \ncame about. If uhlans were guarding the road to make sure that people coming \nout of the city didn't go any further on it, then even a small disturbance \ncould provoke a reaction from the guards that would incite a general panic. \nIt wouldn't take Hethor's extraterrestrial beasties, or any particularly \ndevious physical means, to create the situation - though of course, such \nmeans could be employed.\n\nThe second aspect is the question of motive. If we press the mundane \naccount, it is simply a random occurence - there is no motive. If we don't \naccept this, then we look for a reason why some character in the story would \nwant to incite such a panic. To get very specific on this count we'd have to \ncome to some determination as to *whose* motive it is; instead let's remain \ngeneral, and treat the question in terms of what the possible results of \nsuch a panic might be that would benefit anyone.\n\nIt might be that the goal was to kill one of the members of Severian's \nparty, most probably Severian. If so, the prospective murderer chose a \nmethod so indirect that it couldn't possibly be very effective; the odds of \nyour particular target being killed in the general chaos are rather low.\n\nIt could be that the goal was to escape apprehension by the guards waiting \noutside the gate. This could be a motive for a few people, but particularly \nI am thinking of Baldanders; he is of the same general type as the undines \nand Abaia et al., and if he believed he had been spotted by the cacogens in \nthe wall he might have feared some kind of trap waiting outside the gate. \nThis seems to be a live candidate, but I do not see any real evidence that \npoints to it.\n\nThe third possibility (that I can think of, at any rate), is that someone \nwanted to split the party. This allows for a truly bewildering array of \npossibilities. One party member might have wanted to shake off another one, \nor on the other hand might have wanted to shake off most/all of the others, \nor might have wanted to get themselves alone with a particular individual. \nAnother variation would be one in which a third party, like the current \nAutarch, wanted to separate Severian from one of the others who might cause \nhim harm (Hethor, Baldanders). Here again we have discrete possibilities to \nchoose from, and possible realistic motives, but not a lot of evidence for \nany particular one.\n\nTo me this seems like a dead-end question, there are too many possibilities \nwith not enough evidence to make any one of them more plausible than the \nothers. I guess the only vague clue I can come up with is that if I remember \ncorrectly the tone of the conversation, when the groups reunite, implies \nthat one of the parties might not have tried as hard as they could have to \nreunite with the other one.\n\n-- Chris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm torn. I find the \"Uhlan\" explanaition attractive since it is\nmundane and doesn't require the invention of an entire narrative that is \nnot\nrefererence elsewhere.\n\nOn the otherhand, I understand why a more elaborate theory is sought. If \nthe\nexplanation is so mundane, why cover it up? Why not mention it? Severian \nand\nJonas must have gotten some idea of what it was about by the time they\npassed the gate. But they didn't know at the end of SOTT. I reached the end\nof the fourth book convinced that there would be conversation that \nexplained\nit. To no avail. I read UOTNS still hoping for a clue. Nope.\n\nIf they're looking for Severian, they didn't seem to find him because he \nand\nJonas go through all right. If they're looking for Hethor...well, I don't\nsee any evidence that he is on the run.Why wouldn't the possibility that\nthey are looking for Jonas be just as reasonable? After all, he's an\nexpensive piece of equipment. Or Baldanders! He and his butler seem to be \non\nthe run. There are a heck of a lot of miscreants on that road. But they\ncould have gotten any of them better by waiting for to reach the end of the\ngate.\n\nIt was one of Hethor's pets? Come on. Nothing in the text says that; not\nthat I know of. And why release one in the middle of the gate. To release\none in that setting would be as dangerous for Hethor as anybody else. He\ncould release them almost anywhere else without as much danger. One\nexplanation, I guess, is that the authorities were on to Hethor and were\nabout to catch him so he released the pet to cause the confusion and get\naway. But typically when you're tracking someone (as Hethor is tracking\nSeverian), you follow BEHIND him so you can keep your eye on him. Up ahead\nis the wrong place for him.\n\nNothing so far satisfies me. I'm tempted to suggest that there is no Lupine\n\"explanation\". That it is just an awful traffic jam whose only narrative\npurpose is to split Sev and Jonas from the rest of their group. But Dorcas\n*says* that they are turning around because they are frightened.\n\nJ\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10602232211u7252b1eas952e2672d1fd27b1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-24T06:11:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but stylistically, or perhaps \"novelistically\" would be a better term,\nthe incident is placed to have the utmost importance. Not only is it the end\nof the first book, it is literally and expressly bookended as such -- what's\nthe quote, \"having taken you from one gate to another I will take a brief\nrest\" or somesuch (I don't have my books handy). Thus, in an artistic light,\nthe mysterious tumult at the Piteous Gate is situated to convey what I take\nto be a fair amount of importance.\n\nWith, of course, no subsequent explanation or even further questioning.\nWolfe loves his myriad mysteries, but this one seems almost calculated to\nfrustrate. And what *that* could be about, I have no idea.\n\nSo no, it doesn't seem crucial in terms of plot, but its placement really\ndoes make ya go \"huh.\" Well, me, at least. Huh.\n\nAq" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/23/06, Chris wrote:\n\n[A]s a side note I do not\nunderstand the sort of universal fascination with this incident - which\ndoesn't seem to be provoked by historical discussions on the list because\nit\nis shared by people who haven't read the archives - given that as far as I\ncan tell it isn't crucial to the overall interpretation of the story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c6391f$4b5b93a0$803ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-02-24T08:49:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10602232211u7252b1eas952e2672d1fd27b1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with what Aquastor said, and Crush had earlier implied much the\nsame. Book one ended with a cliff-hanger. Readers expected to find out what\nhappened in the next installment -- but it didn't happen. I know that Robert\nBorski, for one, was particularly put out with the lack of an explanation in\nthe other books.\n\nCrush also noted, \"But Dorcas *says* that they are turning around because\nthey are frightened.\" That serves to make a point about the timing of the\nevents at the Gate. When Sev and his group first caught sight of the Gate\nand the travelers, they were still half a league away from it. Traffic was\nmoving in a steady stream into the tunnel formed by the Gate. By the time\nSev's group reached the Gate, the stream had been flowing for some time\nwithout any problems. Clearly, had the five uhlans been positioned on the\nroad outside the Gate all morning, they hadn't been causing any difficulties\nfor the travelers, who took whatever paths they normally took.\n\nIf we assume that the uhlans made a *sudden* appearance and started killing\npeople on the road, causing the panic in question, then we have to account\nfor a sudden appearance. So far as I can tell, that portion of road nearest\nthe gate was straight. I don't think it reasonable that five mounted men\ncould have come down that road so rapidly that any travelers who might have\nbeen on the road couldn't see and hear them coming in time to get off the\nroad, particularly given the fact the travelers had every reason to be on\nthe lookout for the troopers. It might be argued that the uhlans were hiding\nin the woods, just waiting to ambush the foolhardy. If that were the case,\nwhy didn't they act sooner, before Sev's group ever got to the Gate?\n\nNo, something happened inside the long tunnel through the wall that was so\nfrightening and immediate a threat as to cause the travelers to panic trying\nto get away from it. They fled to the closest exit, some, like the man on\nthe wagon who struck Dorcas, back to the city-side of the tunnel, those\nnearer the outside of the gate fled in a panic from whatever danger there\nwas behind them. Some of them leapt from the frying pan into the fire, so to\nspeak, and ran onto the road and were killed by the soldiers.\n\nIn Severian's dream at the opening of CLAW, the travelers are screaming and\nshouting, then he gains the farther side of the gate and sees the green road\nwith five mounted soldiers on it. \"On these riders, the tide of travelers\nbroke as a wave on a rock, some turning left, some right. Dorcas was torn\nfrom my arms ...\" This was *after* the panic inside the tunnel, when people\nwere still running in a chaotic stream, that he got separated from Dorcas\nand the others. The panic was not caused by the uhlans, who were outside the\ngate, blocking access to the road. Sev and his group went forward in the\ntunnel *towards* the uhlans, not away from them and back to the city.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a0930df0602240226vf38ecdfoe0d77c3fd06d8086@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-24T10:26:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6391f$4b5b93a0$803ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for all of your responses.\n\ndo we even know, though, that the Uhlans were attacking anybody?\nSeverian says that the crowd was breaking like a wave on the Uhlans,\nbut all that that really means is that the crowd was moving and the\nUhlans were staying in the same place. I think Severian also mentions\nthat he takes his sword out and starts attacking everyone in between\nhim and Dorcas, in order to get to her. Presumably something else\ndangerous is happening at the time, or he would have (we hope) just\nshouldered through the crowd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/24/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI agree with what Aquastor said, and Crush had earlier implied much the\nsame. Book one ended with a cliff-hanger. Readers expected to find out what\nhappened in the next installment -- but it didn't happen. I know that Robert\nBorski, for one, was particularly put out with the lack of an explanation in\nthe other books.\n\nCrush also noted, \"But Dorcas *says* that they are turning around because\nthey are frightened.\" That serves to make a point about the timing of the\nevents at the Gate. When Sev and his group first caught sight of the Gate\nand the travelers, they were still half a league away from it. Traffic was\nmoving in a steady stream into the tunnel formed by the Gate. By the time\nSev's group reached the Gate, the stream had been flowing for some time\nwithout any problems. Clearly, had the five uhlans been positioned on the\nroad outside the Gate all morning, they hadn't been causing any difficulties\nfor the travelers, who took whatever paths they normally took.\n\nIf we assume that the uhlans made a *sudden* appearance and started killing\npeople on the road, causing the panic in question, then we have to account\nfor a sudden appearance. So far as I can tell, that portion of road nearest\nthe gate was straight. I don't think it reasonable that five mounted men\ncould have come down that road so rapidly that any travelers who might have\nbeen on the road couldn't see and hear them coming in time to get off the\nroad, particularly given the fact the travelers had every reason to be on\nthe lookout for the troopers. It might be argued that the uhlans were hiding\nin the woods, just waiting to ambush the foolhardy. If that were the case,\nwhy didn't they act sooner, before Sev's group ever got to the Gate?\n\nNo, something happened inside the long tunnel through the wall that was so\nfrightening and immediate a threat as to cause the travelers to panic trying\nto get away from it. They fled to the closest exit, some, like the man on\nthe wagon who struck Dorcas, back to the city-side of the tunnel, those\nnearer the outside of the gate fled in a panic from whatever danger there\nwas behind them. Some of them leapt from the frying pan into the fire, so to\nspeak, and ran onto the road and were killed by the soldiers.\n\nIn Severian's dream at the opening of CLAW, the travelers are screaming and\nshouting, then he gains the farther side of the gate and sees the green road\nwith five mounted soldiers on it. \"On these riders, the tide of travelers\nbroke as a wave on a rock, some turning left, some right. Dorcas was torn\nfrom my arms ...\" This was *after* the panic inside the tunnel, when people\nwere still running in a chaotic stream, that he got separated from Dorcas\nand the others. The panic was not caused by the uhlans, who were outside the\ngate, blocking access to the road. Sev and his group went forward in the\ntunnel *towards* the uhlans, not away from them and back to the city.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-24T12:05:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6391f$4b5b93a0$803ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this may be irrelevant, but we are given to understand that destriers \nare quite fast. They are genetically engineered mounts that can run at least \nas fast as a speeding motor vehicle.Actually come to think of it, 5 of those \ncoming down the road at full speed (if they were in fact doing that) would \nbe a good reason for anyone in their way to panic.\n\nAlso FWIW the Wright book also mentions Aquastor's point about the thematic \nimportance of the gate-to-gate thing. However I don't think this necessarily \nimparts the \"mystery\" of the gate with any extra importance unless there is \nsome other reason to suspect that it is so, and as far as I can tell it \nisn't tied in to the story at ANY other point.\n\nAttempts to analyze the incident further also run into the possibility that \nSeverian may be deliberately hiding something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with what Aquastor said, and Crush had earlier implied much the\nsame. Book one ended with a cliff-hanger. Readers expected to find out what\nhappened in the next installment -- but it didn't happen. I know that \nRobert\nBorski, for one, was particularly put out with the lack of an explanation \nin\nthe other books.\n\nCrush also noted, \"But Dorcas *says* that they are turning around because\nthey are frightened.\" That serves to make a point about the timing of the\nevents at the Gate. When Sev and his group first caught sight of the Gate\nand the travelers, they were still half a league away from it. Traffic was\nmoving in a steady stream into the tunnel formed by the Gate. By the time\nSev's group reached the Gate, the stream had been flowing for some time\nwithout any problems. Clearly, had the five uhlans been positioned on the\nroad outside the Gate all morning, they hadn't been causing any \ndifficulties\nfor the travelers, who took whatever paths they normally took.\n\nIf we assume that the uhlans made a *sudden* appearance and started killing\npeople on the road, causing the panic in question, then we have to account\nfor a sudden appearance. So far as I can tell, that portion of road nearest\nthe gate was straight. I don't think it reasonable that five mounted men\ncould have come down that road so rapidly that any travelers who might have\nbeen on the road couldn't see and hear them coming in time to get off the\nroad, particularly given the fact the travelers had every reason to be on\nthe lookout for the troopers. It might be argued that the uhlans were \nhiding\nin the woods, just waiting to ambush the foolhardy. If that were the case,\nwhy didn't they act sooner, before Sev's group ever got to the Gate?\n\nNo, something happened inside the long tunnel through the wall that was so\nfrightening and immediate a threat as to cause the travelers to panic \ntrying\nto get away from it. They fled to the closest exit, some, like the man on\nthe wagon who struck Dorcas, back to the city-side of the tunnel, those\nnearer the outside of the gate fled in a panic from whatever danger there\nwas behind them. Some of them leapt from the frying pan into the fire, so \nto\nspeak, and ran onto the road and were killed by the soldiers.\n\nIn Severian's dream at the opening of CLAW, the travelers are screaming and\nshouting, then he gains the farther side of the gate and sees the green \nroad\nwith five mounted soldiers on it. \"On these riders, the tide of travelers\nbroke as a wave on a rock, some turning left, some right. Dorcas was torn\nfrom my arms ...\" This was *after* the panic inside the tunnel, when people\nwere still running in a chaotic stream, that he got separated from Dorcas\nand the others. The panic was not caused by the uhlans, who were outside \nthe\ngate, blocking access to the road. Sev and his group went forward in the\ntunnel *towards* the uhlans, not away from them and back to the city.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006601c63952$4d999490$0501a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-02-24T14:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c6391f$4b5b93a0$803ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy opines" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we assume that the uhlans made a *sudden* appearance and started killing\npeople on the road, causing the panic in question, then we have to account\nfor a sudden appearance....It might be argued that the uhlans were hiding\nin the woods, just waiting to ambush the foolhardy. If that were the case,\nwhy didn't they act sooner, before Sev's group ever got to the Gate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While reminding everyone that I'm not satisfied with the uhlan explanation,\nI'll say this:\nThe uhlans had to show up sometime. It could have been a fluke. They showed\nup then. If they hadn't Severian wouldn't have recorded the event. The group\nwould not have gotten split up. Book Two would have proceeded very\ndifferently from the way it did. (Seen the movie \"Slackers\"?) That's the way\nit happened.\n\nQuite apart from the whys and wherefores, this event serves at least two\npurposes (as Roy said):\n1) It is a cliffhanger. It encourages readers to go and buy the next book.\n2) It separates the Severian and Jonas from the group for whatever purpose\nWolfe wanted that to happen.\n\nIn the old serial Westerns, the movie would end with, for example, the hero\nriding off a cliff. How could he possibly escape? Often he couldn't. The\nnext episode would be slightly changed from the previous ending allowing the\nhero to escape. Why? Because the cliffhanger was its own justification.\n\nBy not telling the reader what caused the foul-up, Wolfe ensures he will pay\nattention for the first couple chapters as he sets up a new narrative with a\nnew rhythm. This way Wolfe doesn't have to top the suspense of the ending of\nSOTT.\n\nThere are lots of reasons why having the uhlans show up at the end of the\nbook purely by coincidence makes perfect sense. There is even a reason for\nthe foul-up not having the significance the book implied when SOTT ended.\nOne last added benefit of the uhlan theory is that there is *sort of* a\npotential explanation for the foul up offered in COTC: the dream. As I said,\nI like the Uhlan theory for a lot reasons. But I find it unsatisfying.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10602240923o4035d93coad767946a8b449b3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-24T17:23:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<006601c63952$4d999490$0501a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's another possible scenario, though with the barest of textual\nsupport.\n\nWe are told, iirc, that some cacogens use the interior of the Wall as a way\nstation. We also know that some of the cacogens have access to\nextra-temporal information about Urth (and Sev). It doesn't seem that much\nof a stretch to think that perhaps one of the cacogens, perhaps a\nparticularly monstrous one, stuck in the Wall, and knowing that this passage\nmight be his/her only chance to get an eyeful of the future Epitome of Urth,\npopped outside for a peek. The sudden appearance of such an alien would\nlikely cause just the sort of panic among the walkers as we then see.\n\nI know there's essentially no support for this, and it does move in a\ndirection that would set William of Occam to shaking his unshaven head in\ndismay...but I can't escape the feeling that it is Severian's presence that\nsets the riot in motion, somehow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/24/06, James Wynn wrote:\n\nWhile reminding everyone that I'm not satisfied with the uhlan\nexplanation,\nI'll say this:\nThe uhlans had to show up sometime. It could have been a fluke. They\nshowed\nup then. If they hadn't Severian wouldn't have recorded the event. The\ngroup\nwould not have gotten split up. Book Two would have proceeded very\ndifferently from the way it did. (Seen the movie \"Slackers\"?) That's the\nway\nit happened." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c639db$ced31980$143ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-02-25T07:19:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10602240923o4035d93coad767946a8b449b3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nTo me this seems like a dead-end question, there are too many possibilities\nwith not enough evidence to make any one of them more plausible than the\nothers. I guess the only vague clue I can come up with is that if I\nremember\ncorrectly the tone of the conversation, when the groups reunite, implies\nthat one of the parties might not have tried as hard as they could have to\nreunite with the other one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You must be referring to the brief exchange Sev had with Baldanders after\nescaping from the antechamber. It was only then that we learned that\nBaldanders had been with Sev \"in the forest beyond the Piteous Gate.\"\nBaldanders left him there, presumably to search -- successfully -- for\nTalos, Jolenta and Dorcas. And Baldanders was burdened with all the troupe's\ntheatrical properties. It makes you wonder how hard Sev really tried to find\nDorcas. If slow, dim Baldanders could do it, why not he?\n\nIf Jonas was with Sev and Baldanders at that point, he fails to mention it.\nBut he does at one point mention that he and Jonas were together at some\npoint on the same path to Saltus. Hethor isn't mentioned either, but the\nfact that he showed up in the crowd at Morweena's execution indicates that\nhe didn't have any trouble keeping track of Sev after the fracas at the\ngate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Attempts to analyze the incident further also run into the possibility that\nSeverian may be deliberately hiding something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Why* did he set his sights on Saltus?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c639e1$76809180$563ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-02-25T07:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c639db$ced31980$143ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\n*Why* did he set his sights on Saltus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too late, I remembered that Saltus was on the river and Thrax was near its\nheadwaters.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4400AC0D.3020204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-02-25T19:12:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c639db$ced31980$143ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nYou must be referring to the brief exchange Sev had with Baldanders after\nescaping from the antechamber. It was only then that we learned that\nBaldanders had been with Sev \"in the forest beyond the Piteous Gate.\"\nBaldanders left him there, presumably to search -- successfully -- for\nTalos, Jolenta and Dorcas. And Baldanders was burdened with all the troupe's\ntheatrical properties. It makes you wonder how hard Sev really tried to find\nDorcas. If slow, dim Baldanders could do it, why not he?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this sarcasm? As I recall, Baldanders is quite brainy on matters that \nengage him, and it's no surprise that he and Dr. Talos were able to \nlocate one another, given their origin of their relationship." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c63a49$2d1aea00$643ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-02-25T20:22:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<4400AC0D.3020204@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nYou must be referring to the brief exchange Sev had with Baldanders after\nescaping from the antechamber. It was only then that we learned that\nBaldanders had been with Sev \"in the forest beyond the Piteous Gate.\"\nBaldanders left him there, presumably to search -- successfully -- for\nTalos, Jolenta and Dorcas. And Baldanders was burdened with all the\ntroupe's\ntheatrical properties. It makes you wonder how hard Sev really tried to\nfind\nDorcas. If slow, dim Baldanders could do it, why not he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this sarcasm? As I recall, Baldanders is quite brainy on matters that\nengage him, and it's no surprise that he and Dr. Talos were able to\nlocate one another, given their origin of their relationship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the passage in question (CLAW, XXII), Severian remarks on Baldanders'\nslow speech and \"dull eyes\". He also writes, \"I found it impossible to be\nangry with this dim, gentle giant.\" Baldanders had completely forgotten that\nSeverian had even been with Talos and himself when they left the city via\nthe Piteous Gate.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4403FC53.4070603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-02-28T07:31:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c63a49$2d1aea00$643ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You must be referring to the brief exchange Sev had with Baldanders after\nescaping from the antechamber. It was only then that we learned that\nBaldanders had been with Sev \"in the forest beyond the Piteous Gate.\"\nBaldanders left him there, presumably to search -- successfully -- for\nTalos, Jolenta and Dorcas. And Baldanders was burdened with all the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "troupe's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "theatrical properties. It makes you wonder how hard Sev really tried to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "find" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dorcas. If slow, dim Baldanders could do it, why not he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this sarcasm? As I recall, Baldanders is quite brainy on matters that\nengage him, and it's no surprise that he and Dr. Talos were able to\nlocate one another, given their origin of their relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the passage in question (CLAW, XXII), Severian remarks on Baldanders'\nslow speech and \"dull eyes\". He also writes, \"I found it impossible to be\nangry with this dim, gentle giant.\" Baldanders had completely forgotten that\nSeverian had even been with Talos and himself when they left the city via\nthe Piteous Gate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In light of what we know from the latter books that he's quite \naccomplished at the intellectual business of chemistry and biology, I've \nthought he was putting on a dullard act, or perhaps was showing the \neffects of Dr. Talos' medicine. Even before Lake Diuturna, he's \ndemonstrates a grip on pretend-vs-real stage acting, and even when it's \nappropriate to pretend to not know." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-02-28T15:25:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate", "in_reply_to": "<4403FC53.4070603@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:31 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIn light of what we know from the latter books that he's quite\naccomplished at the intellectual business of chemistry and biology, \nI've\nthought he was putting on a dullard act, or perhaps was showing the\neffects of Dr. Talos' medicine. Even before Lake Diuturna, he's\ndemonstrates a grip on pretend-vs-real stage acting, and even when \nit's\nappropriate to pretend to not know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My belief is that he simply doesn't bother to pay attention to things \nthat don't matter to him. What matters to him is extending his own \nlife and power. To some degree he therefore pays attention to Dr. \nTalos, because he created Talos precisely to make sure that he stayed \nin adequate physical shape to pursue his real goals.\n\nThink of Talos as an alarm clock, basically. Except that Baldanders, \nbeing very clever, has created an alarm clock that beats him with a \nstick until he gets up, and that manages most of the other annoying \ndetails of his physical existence for him, leaving him more time to \nthink about the things that interest him.\n\nAdam" } ] } ] }