{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4555", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4555, "subject": "Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "messages": 13, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-04-01T18:16:39+00:00", "last": "2006-04-09T06:59:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20060401181639.QZTI6244.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-04-01T18:16:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is another post I made in May of 2003 that I was most impressed with reading it again. This will be the last repost - just thought this was some important stuff.\n\n\"Latro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea \nand Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is \nEchidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro as \nGaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete. this would make her Hera, who \nwould be Ares mother (I am your mother, and your mother's mother).\n\nHowever, I believe that there is an undercurrent here in the soldier series: \nthe Achaens have been replaced by the Dorians (Spartans), who have taken over \nthe old ways. If I'm not mistaken, this would make the ghost of Achilles mad, \nand he wants the Spartans to be vanquished. The remains of the achaens are \nsymbolically put to rest with Lykaon in the boar hunting segment late in \nSoldier of Arete, where Latro picks up the shepherd Aglaus, who he then takes \ninto Sparta with him. He keeps Aglaus around because Aglaus reminds him of \nthings, and helps him remember. I don't know if anyone else has said \nanything, but Aglaus is the goat man who identifies Polos as a centaur (or \nbull-killer) in chapter 33. He later makes a pipe for io and begins dancing, \nwhere Latro says that he is reminded of Elata by Aglaus. Aglaus is a satyr, \nwho chases nymphs, and the same carnal force flows through him. So, Latro is \nsurrounded by a nymph, a satyr, a centaur, and a man named Seven Lions, and he \nis probably chasing the shape shifting Zalmoxis as well.\n\nWhy would a satyr, or a being who resembles Pan, remind Latro so strongly of \nhis past? Notice that after Aglaus shows up, Latro starts to remember. The \nmemory house of Simonides helps, but Latro claims that he bought Aglaus' \nservices after Themistocles no longer required a guide to Sparta because of \nAglaus' effect on his memory.\n\nIn the boar hunting scene at the middle of part three of Soldier of Arete, we \nsee several things: the Achaens are old and wiped out, replaced by the \nSpartans, and dying out obscurely in the mountains. Aglaus and Lykaon seems \nto represent the older forces, while Latro represents the burgeoning triumph \nof Rome that looms over all Greece (he is the seed of Rome, as has been said).\n I need to look up which side was the Achaen side, but I'm pretty sure that \nAchilles is mad at the Spartans and is working from beyond the grave to insure \nthat they are going to have some big problems in the near future, and that \nLatro is somehow involved in that effort to thwart them.\n\nThen again, maybe I have it backwards. Aeneas is the survivor of Troy, whose \nseed goes on to found Rome. Perhaps Achilles wouldn't want that force to rise \nagain, since he vanquished Hector and fought for it. What do you think? \nWhich side would the shade of Achilles take? The Great King of the Medes or \nthe Twin Kings of Sparta? Or would he want both to fail so that Rome could \neventually come and take over everything?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<442F8EAF.6000501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-02T08:43:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<20060401181639.QZTI6244.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nThis is another post I made in May of 2003 that I was most impressed with reading it again. This will be the last repost - just thought this was some important stuff.\n\n\"Latro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea \nand Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is \nEchidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro as \nGaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete. this would make her Hera, who \nwould be Ares mother (I am your mother, and your mother's mother)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems inappropriate for Hercules to tutor Ares either on wrestling or \non the wisdom of throwing a wrestling match." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060402091259.NMGN17838.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-04-02T09:12:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<442F8EAF.6000501@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff wrote:\n\nIt seems inappropriate for Hercules to tutor Ares either on wrestling or \non the wisdom of throwing a wrestling match.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet this doesn't explain why Latro is explicitly called Pleistorus on two separate occasions, whereas Basias, who bested him, is never identified as a god, despite the fact that he wins the match. \n\nWhy would Hercules help a mortal, anyway? Why would Odysseus help him take out three people? Once he hears the advice of Hercules, he is able to implement it. If Hercules gave someone who wasn't born to be a warrior advice, they would still lose the match, no matter how good the advice was. You can tell someone how Mike Tyson fights, but it isn't easy to hear someone else and to just go out there and do it.\n\nYour first argument, about the conventions of naming someone as a child of the gods, is cogent. I don't feel that this one, about it being inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares, effectively weighs one way or the other about the possibility of Latro being, in some way, divine. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-02T13:21:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<20060402091259.NMGN17838.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another possibility is the fact that wrestling is sport, not war, and thus \nperhaps only secondarily in the realm of Ares - the techniques necessary to \nwin a wrestling match are not entirely the same as the ones you would need \nto kill or incapacitate an opponent in battle.\n\nAs far as the lineage comments go, I don't see how Hera's statements \nestablish anything. She is, in a sense, everyone's mother - and thus, as she \nsays, everyone's mother's mother as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems inappropriate for Hercules to tutor Ares either on wrestling or\non the wisdom of throwing a wrestling match.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet this doesn't explain why Latro is explicitly called Pleistorus on two \nseparate occasions, whereas Basias, who bested him, is never identified as \na god, despite the fact that he wins the match.\n\nWhy would Hercules help a mortal, anyway? Why would Odysseus help him take \nout three people? Once he hears the advice of Hercules, he is able to \nimplement it. If Hercules gave someone who wasn't born to be a warrior \nadvice, they would still lose the match, no matter how good the advice was. \n You can tell someone how Mike Tyson fights, but it isn't easy to hear \nsomeone else and to just go out there and do it.\n\nYour first argument, about the conventions of naming someone as a child of \nthe gods, is cogent. I don't feel that this one, about it being \ninappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares, effectively \nweighs one way or the other about the possibility of Latro being, in some \nway, divine.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<443044D8.2050501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-02T21:40:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<20060402091259.NMGN17838.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nYour first argument, about the conventions of naming someone as a\nchild of the gods, is cogent. I don't feel that this one, about it\nbeing inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares,\neffectively weighs one way or the other about the possibility of\nLatro being, in some way, divine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure such frailty is in character for a Greek god. Perhaps it is \n the damage that makes Latro subject to direct divine manipulation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<443045DB.5000600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-02T21:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nAnother possibility is the fact that wrestling is sport, not war, and thus \nperhaps only secondarily in the realm of Ares - the techniques necessary to \nwin a wrestling match are not entirely the same as the ones you would need \nto kill or incapacitate an opponent in battle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's still a lesson in conflict, and allowing the other man to win is a \nlesson in sacrifice and deception, both principles of warfare easily as \nimportant as skill with arms." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-03T00:39:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<443045DB.5000600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True to an extent, but it really sounds more like Athena's kind of warfare \nthan that of Ares; and we know that sometimes she can beat him in the open \nfield.\n\nJeff said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's still a lesson in conflict, and allowing the other man to win is a\nlesson in sacrifice and deception, both principles of warfare easily as\nimportant as skill with arms." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060403040245.JSAJ3131.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-04-03T04:02:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Chris\" \n\nTrue to an extent, but it really sounds more like Athena's kind of warfare \nthan that of Ares; and we know that sometimes she can beat him in the open \nfield.\n\nJeff said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's still a lesson in conflict, and allowing the other man to win is a\nlesson in sacrifice and deception, both principles of warfare easily as\nimportant as skill with arms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never understood the importance of Latro throwing the match. Maybe it does have some thematic importance in terms of Latro's development: going from a bloodthirsty mercenary to someone who knows when it is acceptable to fight well without destroying your enemy (something the spartans don't understand, and something that disgusts Latro so much that he becomes suicidal). \n\nOr, as I said before, maybe it is an important lesson for the war god to learn: sometimes you must lose and NOT use your full power to avoid greater destruction. (which is what I believe the significance of the poem Latro quotes when entering the Olympics: \"Ares quits the spear proud throng\". Remember that Latro wins the boxing and Pankration events, even though they occur off screen, because they expect him to win the chariot races, too.)\n\nMarc" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4431B219.5070606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-03T23:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<20060403040245.JSAJ3131.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nFrom: \"Chris\" \n\nTrue to an extent, but it really sounds more like Athena's kind of warfare \nthan that of Ares; and we know that sometimes she can beat him in the open \nfield.\n\nJeff said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's still a lesson in conflict, and allowing the other man to win is a\nlesson in sacrifice and deception, both principles of warfare easily as\nimportant as skill with arms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I never understood the importance of Latro throwing the match. Maybe it does have some thematic importance in terms of Latro's development: going from a bloodthirsty mercenary to someone who knows when it is acceptable to fight well without destroying your enemy (something the spartans don't understand, and something that disgusts Latro so much that he becomes suicidal). \n\nOr, as I said before, maybe it is an important lesson for the war god to learn: sometimes you must lose and NOT use your full power to avoid greater destruction. (which is what I believe the significance of the poem Latro quotes when entering the Olympics: \"Ares quits the spear proud throng\". Remember that Latro wins the boxing and Pankration events, even though they occur off screen, because they expect him to win the chariot races, too.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm really not sure it's in keeping with the character of the gods for \nthem to learn such life lessons. Since they embody natural forces and \nhuman psychology, a god leearning a new behavior would literally be a \nworld-changing event, or signal a change in human nature." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-04-04T00:28:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<4431B219.5070606@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI'm really not sure it's in keeping with the character of the gods for\nthem to learn such life lessons. Since they embody natural forces and\nhuman psychology, a god leearning a new behavior would literally be a\nworld-changing event, or signal a change in human nature.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87969909.20060407183515@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-04-07T16:35:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<443044D8.2050501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Jeff," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sunday, April 2, 2006, 11:40:40 PM, you wrote:\naramini1 at cox.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your first argument, about the conventions of naming someone as a\nchild of the gods, is cogent. I don't feel that this one, about it\nbeing inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares,\neffectively weighs one way or the other about the possibility of\nLatro being, in some way, divine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure such frailty is in character for a Greek god. Perhaps it is\n the damage that makes Latro subject to direct divine manipulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some Titans once imprisoned Ares by cutting out his tendons, so that\nhe couldn't move and had to be rescued. It always seems to me that\nGreeks really disliked Ares, I don't remember them saying one good\nthing about him. Romans very much loved Mars, of course." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nPan pozna Pania. Czeka... ;-) >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1922" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44376566.1020009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-08T07:25:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<87969909.20060407183515@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanislaus wrote:\nHello Jeff,\n\nSunday, April 2, 2006, 11:40:40 PM, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aramini1 at cox.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Your first argument, about the conventions of naming someone as a\nchild of the gods, is cogent. I don't feel that this one, about it\nbeing inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares,\neffectively weighs one way or the other about the possibility of\nLatro being, in some way, divine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure such frailty is in character for a Greek god. Perhaps it is\n the damage that makes Latro subject to direct divine manipulation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some Titans once imprisoned Ares by cutting out his tendons, so that\nhe couldn't move and had to be rescued. It always seems to me that\nGreeks really disliked Ares, I don't remember them saying one good\nthing about him. Romans very much loved Mars, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you mean Ares could be injured by other exalted beings, that agrees\nwith the Illiad. But it raises the question, what other exalted being \nwas present in the temple to strike the blow against Latro that wounded \nAres?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060409065917.IVMB20050.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-04-09T06:59:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles", "in_reply_to": "<44376566.1020009@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you mean Ares could be injured by other exalted beings, that agrees\nwith the Illiad. But it raises the question, what other exalted being \nwas present in the temple to strike the blow against Latro that wounded \nAres?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His mother was mad at him for desecrating the temple. She influenced the wound." } ] } ] }