Subject: (urth) Hera and Sphinx / achilles

From: aramini1 at cox.net <aramini1 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 18:16:39 +0000

This is another post I made in May of 2003 that I was most impressed with reading it again.  This will be the last repost - just thought this was some important stuff.

"Latro offends Hera or Gaea by fighting in her temple (in the books, Gaea 
and Hera are blended together and oppose the triple goddess, who is 
Echidna(enodia)+Moon (Selene) + Huntress) The sphinx is identified by Latro as 
Gaea (!) in chapter 29 of Soldier of Arete.  this would make her Hera, who 
would be Ares mother (I am your mother, and your mother's mother).

However, I believe that there is an undercurrent here in the soldier series: 
the Achaens have been replaced by the Dorians (Spartans), who have taken over 
the old ways.  If I'm not mistaken, this would make the ghost of Achilles mad, 
and he wants the Spartans to be vanquished.  The remains of the achaens are 
symbolically put to rest with Lykaon in the boar hunting segment late in 
Soldier of Arete, where Latro picks up the shepherd Aglaus, who he then takes 
into Sparta with him.  He keeps Aglaus around because Aglaus reminds him of 
things, and helps him remember.  I don't know if anyone else has said 
anything, but Aglaus is the goat man who identifies Polos as a centaur (or 
bull-killer) in chapter 33.  He later makes a pipe for io and begins dancing, 
where Latro says that he is reminded of Elata by Aglaus.  Aglaus is a satyr, 
who chases nymphs, and the same carnal force flows through him.  So, Latro is 
surrounded by a nymph, a satyr, a centaur, and a man named Seven Lions, and he 
is probably chasing the shape shifting Zalmoxis as well.

Why would a satyr, or a being who resembles Pan, remind Latro so strongly of 
his past?  Notice that after Aglaus shows up, Latro starts to remember.  The 
memory house of Simonides helps, but Latro claims that he bought Aglaus' 
services after Themistocles no longer required a guide to Sparta because of 
Aglaus' effect on his memory.

In the boar hunting scene at the middle of part three of Soldier of Arete, we 
see several things: the Achaens are old and wiped out, replaced by the 
Spartans, and dying out obscurely in the mountains.  Aglaus and Lykaon seems 
to represent the older forces, while Latro represents the burgeoning triumph 
of Rome that looms over all Greece (he is the seed of Rome, as has been said).
 I need to look up which side was the Achaen side, but I'm pretty sure that 
Achilles is mad at the Spartans and is working from beyond the grave to insure 
that they are going to have some big problems in the near future, and that 
Latro is somehow involved in that effort to thwart them.

Then again, maybe I have it backwards.  Aeneas is the survivor of Troy, whose 
seed goes on to found Rome.  Perhaps Achilles wouldn't want that force to rise 
again, since he vanquished Hector and fought for it.  What do you think?  
Which side would the shade of Achilles take? The Great King of the Medes or 
the Twin Kings of Sparta?  Or would he want both to fail so that Rome could 
eventually come and take over everything?"

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 08:43:27 +0000

> would be Ares mother (I am your mother, and your mother's mother).

It seems inappropriate for Hercules to tutor Ares either on wrestling or 
on the wisdom of throwing a wrestling match.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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From: aramini1 at cox.net <aramini1 at cox.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 09:12:59 +0000

> on the wisdom of throwing a wrestling match.

Yet this doesn't explain why Latro is explicitly called Pleistorus on two separate occasions, whereas Basias, who bested him, is never identified as a god, despite the fact that he wins the match.  

Why would Hercules help a mortal, anyway? Why would Odysseus help him take out three people?  Once he hears the advice of Hercules, he is able to implement it.  If Hercules gave someone who wasn't born to be a warrior advice, they would still lose the match, no matter how good the advice was.  You can tell someone how Mike Tyson fights, but it isn't easy to hear someone else and to just go out there and do it.

Your first argument, about the conventions of naming  someone as a child of the gods, is cogent.  I don't feel that this one, about it being inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares, effectively weighs one way or the other about the possibility of Latro being, in some way, divine.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 13:21:39 +0000

Another possibility is the fact that wrestling is sport, not war, and thus 
perhaps only secondarily in the realm of Ares - the techniques necessary to 
win a wrestling match are not entirely the same as the ones you would need 
to kill or incapacitate an opponent in battle.

As far as the lineage comments go, I don't see how Hera's statements 
establish anything. She is, in a sense, everyone's mother - and thus, as she 
says, everyone's mother's mother as well.

>Yet this doesn't explain why Latro is explicitly called Pleistorus on two 
>separate occasions, whereas Basias, who bested him, is never identified as 
>a god, despite the fact that he wins the match.
>
>Why would Hercules help a mortal, anyway? Why would Odysseus help him take 
>out three people?  Once he hears the advice of Hercules, he is able to 
>implement it.  If Hercules gave someone who wasn't born to be a warrior 
>advice, they would still lose the match, no matter how good the advice was. 
>  You can tell someone how Mike Tyson fights, but it isn't easy to hear 
>someone else and to just go out there and do it.
>
>Your first argument, about the conventions of naming  someone as a child of 
>the gods, is cogent.  I don't feel that this one, about it being 
>inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares, effectively 
>weighs one way or the other about the possibility of Latro being, in some 
>way, divine.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Urth Mailing List
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:40:40 +0000

aramini1 at cox.net wrote:

> Your first argument, about the conventions of naming  someone as a
> child of the gods, is cogent.  I don't feel that this one, about it
> being inappropriate for Hercules to tutor a brain damaged Ares,
> effectively weighs one way or the other about the possibility of
> Latro being, in some way, divine.

I'm not sure such frailty is in character for a Greek god. Perhaps it is 
  the damage that makes Latro subject to direct divine manipulation.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:44:59 +0000

> to kill or incapacitate an opponent in battle.

It's still a lesson in conflict, and allowing the other man to win is a 
lesson in sacrifice and deception, both principles of warfare easily as 
important as skill with arms.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 00:39:10 +0000

True to an extent, but it really sounds more like Athena's kind of warfare 
than that of Ares; and we know that sometimes she can beat him in the open 
field.

---

From: aramini1 at cox.net <aramini1 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 04:02:45 +0000

> 
> From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
> 

I never understood the importance of Latro throwing the match.  Maybe it does have some thematic importance in terms of Latro's development: going from a bloodthirsty mercenary to someone who knows when it is acceptable to fight well without destroying your enemy (something the spartans don't understand, and something that disgusts Latro so much that he becomes suicidal).  

Or, as I said before, maybe it is an important lesson for the war god to learn: sometimes you must lose and NOT use your full power to avoid greater destruction. (which is what I believe the significance of the poem Latro quotes when entering the Olympics: "Ares quits the spear proud throng".  Remember that Latro wins the boxing and Pankration events, even though they occur off screen, because they expect him to win the chariot races, too.)

Marc

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:39:05 +0000

> Or, as I said before, maybe it is an important lesson for the war god to learn: sometimes you must lose and NOT use your full power to avoid greater destruction. (which is what I believe the signif…

I'm really not sure it's in keeping with the character of the gods for 
them to learn such life lessons. Since they embody natural forces and 
human psychology, a god leearning a new behavior would literally be a 
world-changing event, or signal a change in human nature.

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 00:28:01 +0000

> world-changing event, or signal a change in human nature.

Like Long Sun, even the gods can change, and given Wolfe's cosmology, will
be undergoing a big change within 480 years or so ;)

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From: Stanislaus <sbocian at poczta.fm>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:35:15 +0000

Hello Jeff,

>   the damage that makes Latro subject to direct divine manipulation.

Some Titans once imprisoned Ares by cutting out his tendons, so that
he couldn't move and had to be rescued. It always seems to me that
Greeks really disliked Ares, I don't remember them saying one good
thing about him. Romans very much loved Mars, of course.

-- 
Best regards,
 Stanislaus                           mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pan pozna Pania. Czeka... ;-) >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1922

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 07:25:26 +0000

> thing about him. Romans very much loved Mars, of course.

If you mean Ares could be injured by other exalted beings, that agrees
with the Illiad. But it raises the question, what other exalted being 
was present in the temple to strike the blow against Latro that wounded 
Ares?

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From: aramini1 at cox.net <aramini1 at cox.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 06:59:17 +0000

> was present in the temple to strike the blow against Latro that wounded 

His mother was mad at him for desecrating the temple.  She influenced the wound.