{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4557", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4557, "subject": "changing the immutable gods", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2006-04-04T14:21:52+00:00", "last": "2006-04-05T04:47:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20060404142152.OSJ15695.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2006-04-04T14:21:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff made the extremely valid point that a change in the character of a Greek God would be exceedingly out of character. That was part of my original point: he needed to be clothed in human flesh to experience change and learn. As a god, he was incapable of understanding humans completely.\n\nIf you look at Wolfe's interview with a fellow list member (James Jordan, I believe?) he states he wanted to take Latro eventually into the world of the Hebrews.\n\nVery interesting, considering Pleistorus is \"ahura mazda incognito\" (ie - the great god of good). If there is any importance to this statement, I think it is that this God of Good is so changed by his human experiences that he changes the very ethos of the world and eventually checks the pagan nature of the other gods, gods which were previously given free reign, triggering the Christian era. And he does so by incarnating himself among the Jewish population under Rome.\n\nIf Wolfe had written Soldier of Sidon immediately after Soldier of Arete, there are a few things I bet would happen. They still might, if he stayed to his original plan.\n\nI would bet major money on any or all of these conjectures.\n\n1. Latro will probably die and rise again in some way\n2. Latro will probably receive a foot wound, like just about every other important, spiritual Wolfe hero.\n3. Latro will visit a city of the dead and escape(unless that particular prophecy has already occurred in the Sisyphus sections of Arete).\n4. It will be revealed that Latro has, somehow, more than one personality, whether it be through possession or psychosis.\n\nNote that I don't think Wolfe is predictable at all, but he does have certain tropes that emerge in just about every one of his major spiritual paragons, of which I consider Latro a prime example.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604041116m26271326yca7bac58c8b41f08@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-04T18:16:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "<20060404142152.OSJ15695.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/4/06, aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nI would bet major money on any or all of these conjectures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. Latro will probably die and rise again in some way\n2. Latro will probably receive a foot wound, like just about every other\n important, spiritual Wolfe hero.\n3. Latro will visit a city of the dead and escape(unless that particular\n prophecy has already occurred in the Sisyphus sections of Arete).\n4. It will be revealed that Latro has, somehow, more than one personality,\n whether it be through possession or psychosis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "5. The world in which Latro lives will prove to have a twin world with\n shape-changing or personality-stealing denizens. (Or has this\n already happened?)\n6. Latro will meet a limping man in black with a scarred face.\n7. Latro will unwillingly become the ruler of some citystate or other.\n\nWell, these are neither more nor less probable than Marc's, I think...\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604041154l58b7182k608e36f3986385bf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-04T18:54:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "8. The gods will turn out to be fairies, a.k.a. extraterrestrials" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, I'm missing the referent here..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-04T19:11:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "<20060404142152.OSJ15695.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry to single you out, Marc, but you are making a move here that's all too \ncommon on this list. You have made an unnoticed shift from *speculation* \nthat Pleistorus *might be* \"Ahuramazda incognito\" to simply assuming that he \n*is* such. This is particularly dangerous with Wolfe because he will often \nhave characters drop suggestive ideas (or even seem to know things) that are \nbased on their own misunderstanding of what's going on.\n\nMarc said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very interesting, considering Pleistorus is \"ahura mazda incognito\" (ie - \nthe great god of good). If there is any importance to this statement, I \nthink it is that this God of Good is so changed by his human experiences \nthat he changes the very ethos of the world and eventually checks the pagan \nnature of the other gods, gods which were previously given free reign, \ntriggering the Christian era. And he does so by incarnating himself among \nthe Jewish population under Rome." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2006-04-04T19:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "<5103A80C-81B2-4A61-A605-DC51145E8D7F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was it Wolfe that wrote that story about the (flamboyant) Fairies returning\nto Ireland, or was it Bradbury?\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Matthew King\nSent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 2:13 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) changing the immutable gods" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Apr 4, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n8. The gods will turn out to be fairies, a.k.a. extraterrestrials" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, I'm missing the referent here..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Primary referent would be Castleview, but I recall there being \nseveral short stories where fairies are identified with aliens. \nEnough so that on the last one of these I read, I was waiting for the \nassociation to pop up.\n\nWouldn't it be nice if I could cite which stories? I will have to \nskim the tables of contents of the collections this evening.\n\nRegarding the equation of gods with extraterrestrials (and thus \nfaeries), I may be conflating Wolfe with somebody else. Bad form." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-04T20:28:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604041116m26271326yca7bac58c8b41f08@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 4, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 4/4/06, aramini1 at cox.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would bet major money on any or all of these conjectures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1. Latro will probably die and rise again in some way\n2. Latro will probably receive a foot wound, like just about \nevery other\n important, spiritual Wolfe hero.\n3. Latro will visit a city of the dead and escape(unless that \nparticular\n prophecy has already occurred in the Sisyphus sections of Arete).\n4. It will be revealed that Latro has, somehow, more than one \npersonality,\n whether it be through possession or psychosis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. The world in which Latro lives will prove to have a twin world with\n shape-changing or personality-stealing denizens. (Or has this\n already happened?)\n6. Latro will meet a limping man in black with a scarred face.\n7. Latro will unwillingly become the ruler of some citystate or other.\n\nWell, these are neither more nor less probable than Marc's, I think..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "8. The gods will turn out to be fairies, a.k.a. extraterrestrials" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5103A80C-81B2-4A61-A605-DC51145E8D7F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-04T21:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604041154l58b7182k608e36f3986385bf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Apr 4, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n8. The gods will turn out to be fairies, a.k.a. extraterrestrials" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, I'm missing the referent here..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Primary referent would be Castleview, but I recall there being \nseveral short stories where fairies are identified with aliens. \nEnough so that on the last one of these I read, I was waiting for the \nassociation to pop up.\n\nWouldn't it be nice if I could cite which stories? I will have to \nskim the tables of contents of the collections this evening.\n\nRegarding the equation of gods with extraterrestrials (and thus \nfaeries), I may be conflating Wolfe with somebody else. Bad form." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44334BD0.5010909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-05T04:47:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changing the immutable gods", "in_reply_to": "<20060404142152.OSJ15695.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aramini1 at cox.net wrote:\nJeff made the extremely valid point that a change in the character of\na Greek God would be exceedingly out of character. That was part of\nmy original point: he needed to be clothed in human flesh to\nexperience change and learn. As a god, he was incapable of\nunderstanding humans completely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may be, but the problem arises, where does the change go when the \nmortal passes, or the god separates form the mortal? Again, you have the \nproblem of changing the world or human nature. I suppose a change of the \noutward aspect of human nature over an age would be believable, with \nAres quitting the spear as an age of peace spreads over the earth to \npresage the birth of Christ, but that would take many mortal lifetimes \nand presumably many mortals. This would remove much of Latro's \nspecialness and make the coincidence of his wounding and cursing either \nunnecessary or ludicrously repeatable.\n\nThen again, the age of peace began to break down again as soon as Herrod \n heard the prophecy, so perhaps the answer is, Ares just took a \nholiday, then went back to the old killing business once more." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }