{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4561", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4561, "subject": "Astral travel in time", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-04-06T19:18:14+00:00", "last": "2006-04-07T18:10:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001401c659ae$dd6b0dc0$6f3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-04-06T19:18:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Astral travel in time", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l quoted and wrote:\nI agree with Andrew in that I see no evidence in the text to suggest that\nastral travel also involves time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is given to us during the storytelling context. The Narrator\ntravels into at least two peoples' stories that have already\nhappened -- and at least one of them is quite surprised at it,\nin a way that shows that she perceives that her own past has\nbeen changed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took the apparent changes in the inhuma's story to be the product of\nSilkhorn's seeming ability, while awake, to influence her storytelling, not\nthat he was actually able to change the past, whether he did it\nunconsciously or deliberately. To accord Silkhorn the ability to change the\npast, as Andrew has already suggested, opens up a Pandora's box that, once\nopened, not only can't be closed again, but potentially lets out more\npossibilities than the box could ever have held to begin with. Where does\nSilkhorn's power to change the past come from, and where does it stop? Why\nshouldn't he go back in the past to change any number of outcomes he didn't\nlike, things that were a lot more important to him and the other humans who\ncame to the Blue-Green system than the particular inhuma sitting at the\ntable?\n\nIf Silkhorn has the power to change the past, then almost anything becomes\npossible, there are no logical rules and we might as well be trying to find\nmeaning in nonsense rhymes.\n\nI can't explain the appearance of the Silk-like and Oreb-like figures in the\nold woman's story, but if Silkhorn traveled back in time to spook somebody,\nhe not only did it off-stage, he exercised his power, in my opinion, rather\ntrivially and arbitrarily.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604061301v73efd310m74cdabf4f8a46340@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-06T20:01:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Astral travel in time", "in_reply_to": "<001401c659ae$dd6b0dc0$6f3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To accord Silkhorn the ability to change the\npast, as Andrew has already suggested, opens up a Pandora's box that,\nonce opened, not only can't be closed again, but potentially lets out more\npossibilities than the box could ever have held to begin with. Where does\nSilkhorn's power to change the past come from, and where does it stop?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, to begin with, it probably isn't \"his\" power, but that of the\nOutsider, Whom he serves. I doubt he even knows he does it.(The\nNarrator is brain-numbingly good at not knowing stuff about himself:\nnot so much an unreliable narrator as an unreliable observer.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why shouldn't he go back in the past to change any number of\noutcomes he didn't like, things that were a lot more important to him\nand the other humans who came to the Blue-Green system than the\nparticular inhuma sitting at the table?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no doubt that he would if he (knew he) could. However, this\nis not the Outsider's focus. The Outsider (Who is the Christian God)\nis interested in individuals, souls, not mass movements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't explain the appearance of the Silk-like and Oreb-like figures in the\nold woman's story, but if Silkhorn traveled back in time to spook somebody,\nhe not only did it off-stage, he exercised his power, in my opinion, rather\ntrivially and arbitrarily." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he did it of his own volition - yes. If the Outsider/Increate/God did,\nhowever, then it has some extremely important meaning in the lives\nof the participants -- to which the Narrator is probably not privy.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060407064253.69466.qmail@web54209.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2006-04-07T06:42:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Astral travel in time", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604061301v73efd310m74cdabf4f8a46340@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Couldn't Silkhorns power here be described as changing\nthe memory of an event (inserting a new memory)\nthrough story-telling, rather than to really change\nthe past? Wouldn't this have the same (desired)\neffect? To alter the subjects future?\n\nThis would mean the past stays the past, now is now,\nand the future (or one version of it) is yet\nunwritten, but is influenced by our perception of (not\nthe reality of) past events. This in no way explains\nthe (instant) AT though. Unless SH is attempting to\nuse his power on us (readers of SS) to alter our\nmemory of what happened ten books ago.\n\nAnd Dan, if SH is just a puppet then the only fun I\ncould have reading about him would be to find the\nstrings. These books have lots of strings, and not\nmany of then go up to Heaven.\n\nnastler\n\n--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To accord Silkhorn the ability to change the\npast, as Andrew has already suggested, opens up a\nPandora's box that,\nonce opened, not only can't be closed again, but\npotentially lets out more\npossibilities than the box could ever have held to\nbegin with. Where does\nSilkhorn's power to change the past come from, and\nwhere does it stop?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, to begin with, it probably isn't \"his\" power,\nbut that of the\nOutsider, Whom he serves. I doubt he even knows he\ndoes it.(The\nNarrator is brain-numbingly good at not knowing\nstuff about himself:\nnot so much an unreliable narrator as an unreliable\nobserver.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why shouldn't he go back in the past to change any\nnumber of\noutcomes he didn't like, things that were a lot\nmore important to him\nand the other humans who came to the Blue-Green\nsystem than the\nparticular inhuma sitting at the table?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no doubt that he would if he (knew he) could.\nHowever, this\nis not the Outsider's focus. The Outsider (Who is\nthe Christian God)\nis interested in individuals, souls, not mass\nmovements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't explain the appearance of the Silk-like\nand Oreb-like figures in the\nold woman's story, but if Silkhorn traveled back\nin time to spook somebody,\nhe not only did it off-stage, he exercised his\npower, in my opinion, rather\ntrivially and arbitrarily." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he did it of his own volition - yes. If the\nOutsider/Increate/God did,\nhowever, then it has some extremely important\nmeaning in the lives\nof the participants -- to which the Narrator is\nprobably not privy.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who\nfear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-04-07T07:19:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Astral travel in time", "in_reply_to": "<20060407064253.69466.qmail@web54209.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, nastler wrote:\nCouldn't Silkhorns power here be described as changing\nthe memory of an event (inserting a new memory)\nthrough story-telling, rather than to really change\nthe past? Wouldn't this have the same (desired)\neffect? To alter the subjects future?\n\nThis would mean the past stays the past, now is now,\nand the future (or one version of it) is yet\nunwritten, but is influenced by our perception of (not\nthe reality of) past events. This in no way explains\nthe (instant) AT though. Unless SH is attempting to\nuse his power on us (readers of SS) to alter our\nmemory of what happened ten books ago.\n\nnastler" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, this is the conceit of Mitchell's _Cloud Atlas_.\n\nDavid Duffy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200604070953.k379rRq2071398@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-04-07T09:53:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Astral travel in time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 06:01:15 +1000 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n wrote:\nTo accord Silkhorn the ability to change the\npast, as Andrew has already suggested, opens up a Pandora's box \nthat,\nonce opened, not only can't be closed again, but potentially \nlets out more\npossibilities than the box could ever have held to begin with. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does\nSilkhorn's power to change the past come from, and where does it " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "stop?\n\nOkay, to begin with, it probably isn't \"his\" power, but that of \nthe\nOutsider, Whom he serves. I doubt he even knows he does it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just in the context of SilkHorn & Sev, my Big Hypothesis is really \nbased on Sev's \"iterative\" world-line, not on any specifically \nSilkHornian past-changing ability. \n\nIn the New Sun context, the Sev we know has been constructed by the \nHierogrammates or whoever by layering different histories on top of \neach other (at least two histories, anyway). Or if not layering, \nthen replacing one history by another - but I like the layering \nimage better, partly I guess because you see the same mechanism in \nFree Live Free.\n\nMy hypothesis is that SilkHorn astral-travelling to Urth launches a \nnew future Sev world-line, perhaps radically different to the one \nin New Sun. The instigator of the change is no doubt the \nOutsider/Increate, intervening with SilkHorn as his agent. \n\nTotally making up stories: Perhaps the Increate also finds the \neternal Hiero/human reproductive cycle distasteful, and from now on \nit will be replaced by something different - perhaps no longer a \nsuccession of universes, but just one, with a definite end. Etc etc \netc. (Why he let things get out of hand in the first place - \ndunno!) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604071110q553907efo877329bdbaae045e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-07T18:10:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Astral travel in time", "in_reply_to": "<200604070953.k379rRq2071398@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/7/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nIn the New Sun context, the Sev we know has been constructed by the\nHierogrammates or whoever by layering different histories on top of\neach other (at least two histories, anyway). Or if not layering,\nthen replacing one history by another - but I like the layering\nimage better, partly I guess because you see the same mechanism in\nFree Live Free." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also think \"layering\" is the right term. I don't know whether Wolfe\nactually believes this or not, but these books seem to suggest something\nI have long thought possible -- that God is an artist who revises His work\nas He goes along.\n\nThe analogy I use is Tolkien writing The Lord of the Rings. When\nhe first got the Hobbits to Bree, they found there an odd, weatherworn\nHobbit named \"Trotter.\" Nobody was more surprised than Tolkien when\n\"Trotter\" turned out not to be a Hobbit at all, but Aragorn.\n\nI suspect that this is something like what it's like to create a world\nthat contains creatures with free will. They come up with stuff you had\nnever expected and you wind up revising the world to fit it better. And\nsometimes this revision leaves behind artifacts of the earlier versions.\n(Thus Severian's awareness that there were other versions of him\nbefore.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My hypothesis is that SilkHorn astral-travelling to Urth launches a\nnew future Sev world-line, perhaps radically different to the one\nin New Sun. The instigator of the change is no doubt the\nOutsider/Increate, intervening with SilkHorn as his agent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is precisely what I think also -- though, as noted, it could\nalso be argued that the O/I used the Narrator to make Severian what\nhe would become in NS.\n\n(Side point: an alternate explanation for the inconsistencies ...\none that wouldn't involve wiping out the NS. We know that Severian\nthe Memorious nonetheless suppresses certain things and lies\nabout others. Perhaps there was something in the encounter with\nthe Narrator that he finds very threatening ... perhaps even something\nthat might give him a presentiment of his destiny?)\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] } ] }