{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4564", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4564, "subject": "Juturna", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-04-07T18:35:46+00:00", "last": "2006-04-10T04:42:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<002501c65a72$198117a0$a73ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-04-07T18:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just to muddy the waters a little more . . . earlier I wrote:\nBack in the throne room, Sev had asked her if she remembered saving him\nwhen\nhe was a boy: \"No. It hasn't yet occurred. It will, because you spoke.\"\n(306) Very curious. Sev's pronouncement thus became a prophesy. The New Sun\nand the flood were established facts as she spoke before the throne, she\nknew for a fact that Sev would succeed in bringing the New Sun, yet she\ncame\nthere to save him anyway that day if she could *and* she would see to it\nthat she saved him from drowning in *her* future, which was *his* past. It\nseems to me that she succeeded on both counts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The meeting in the throne room with Juturna was the third for Sev. The\nsecond meeting was at the Cephissus river, when she tried to seduce him. At\nthat time she mentioned having previously saved him from drowning among the\nclotted weeds in the Gyoll. Ergo, since from her perspective there in the\nthrone room she had yet to save him from drowning in the Gyoll, for her the\nmeeting at the Cephissus cannot have happened yet, either.\n\nYet she seems to know Sev. If that meeting in the throne room was not her\nfirst, when could she have known him earlier, if not from their coming\nencounter (coming from Sev's point of view) after the flood?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060409095349.91346.qmail@web54207.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2006-04-09T09:53:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)", "in_reply_to": "<002501c65a72$198117a0$a73ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nI don't think I have understand the problem with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Juturnas POV she meets Sev in the throne room and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "he makes his \"prophesy\" that she will save him from\ndrowning in Gyoll. She searchs \"backwards\" through his\nlife and meets Sev at the sand bank where (among other\nthings) she mentions that it was (will be) her that\nsaves him from the weeds. When she reaches the moment\nwhere the nenuphars attempt to drown the NS she saves\nhim.\n\nWhy are these plants the image of \"the death of the\nsun\" anyway? \"glossy, pale leaves and azure flower.\"\n\"black roots as fine and strong as hair, reaching down\ninto the dark waters\". What forces are represented by\nthese plants? Why do they wish to drown the sun? Would\nthey not thrive in a sunnier Ushas? Are they\nnon-terrestrial? I think they must be. They are\n\"weeds\" after all. They have roots reaching into dark\nwaters, but are opposed by the Undines. Who can clear\nthis up?\n\nnastler\n\n--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just to muddy the waters a little more . . . earlier\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Back in the throne room, Sev had asked her if she\nremembered saving him\nwhen\nhe was a boy: \"No. It hasn't yet occurred. It will,\nbecause you spoke.\"\n(306) Very curious. Sev's pronouncement thus became\na prophesy. The New Sun\nand the flood were established facts as she spoke\nbefore the throne, she\nknew for a fact that Sev would succeed in bringing\nthe New Sun, yet she\ncame\nthere to save him anyway that day if she could\n*and* she would see to it\nthat she saved him from drowning in *her* future,\nwhich was *his* past. It\nseems to me that she succeeded on both counts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The meeting in the throne room with Juturna was the\nthird for Sev. The\nsecond meeting was at the Cephissus river, when she\ntried to seduce him. At\nthat time she mentioned having previously saved him\nfrom drowning among the\nclotted weeds in the Gyoll. Ergo, since from her\nperspective there in the\nthrone room she had yet to save him from drowning in\nthe Gyoll, for her the\nmeeting at the Cephissus cannot have happened yet,\neither.\n\nYet she seems to know Sev. If that meeting in the\nthrone room was not her\nfirst, when could she have known him earlier, if not\nfrom their coming\nencounter (coming from Sev's point of view) after\nthe flood?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tristan Davenport", "address": "tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-09T18:02:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)", "in_reply_to": "<20060409095349.91346.qmail@web54207.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are these plants the image of \"the death of the\nsun\" anyway? \"glossy, pale leaves and azure flower.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are references throughout the NS books to the paleness of the plants; \npresumably the dying sun is not bright enough to stimulate chlorophyll \nproduction. This is contrasted with the rich green of plants under a \nhealthy sun. So by the very fact of their glossy paleness, the nenuphars \nreflect the dying of the sun. Then I suppose there's the metaphorical \nmeaning of their role in Sev's near-drowning. (Question: Why are the plants \non Urth pale, while those on the moon apparently quite green?)\n\n Tristan\n tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: nastler \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)\nDate: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:53:49 +0200 (CEST)\n\nRoy,\n\nI don't think I have understand the problem with this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From Juturnas POV she meets Sev in the throne room and\nhe makes his \"prophesy\" that she will save him from\ndrowning in Gyoll. She searchs \"backwards\" through his\nlife and meets Sev at the sand bank where (among other\nthings) she mentions that it was (will be) her that\nsaves him from the weeds. When she reaches the moment\nwhere the nenuphars attempt to drown the NS she saves\nhim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are these plants the image of \"the death of the\nsun\" anyway? \"glossy, pale leaves and azure flower.\"\n\"black roots as fine and strong as hair, reaching down\ninto the dark waters\". What forces are represented by\nthese plants? Why do they wish to drown the sun? Would\nthey not thrive in a sunnier Ushas? Are they\nnon-terrestrial? I think they must be. They are\n\"weeds\" after all. They have roots reaching into dark\nwaters, but are opposed by the Undines. Who can clear\nthis up?\n\nnastler\n\n--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just to muddy the waters a little more . . . earlier\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Back in the throne room, Sev had asked her if she\nremembered saving him\nwhen\nhe was a boy: \"No. It hasn't yet occurred. It will,\nbecause you spoke.\"\n(306) Very curious. Sev's pronouncement thus became\na prophesy. The New Sun\nand the flood were established facts as she spoke\nbefore the throne, she\nknew for a fact that Sev would succeed in bringing\nthe New Sun, yet she\ncame\nthere to save him anyway that day if she could\n*and* she would see to it\nthat she saved him from drowning in *her* future,\nwhich was *his* past. It\nseems to me that she succeeded on both counts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The meeting in the throne room with Juturna was the\nthird for Sev. The\nsecond meeting was at the Cephissus river, when she\ntried to seduce him. At\nthat time she mentioned having previously saved him\nfrom drowning among the\nclotted weeds in the Gyoll. Ergo, since from her\nperspective there in the\nthrone room she had yet to save him from drowning in\nthe Gyoll, for her the\nmeeting at the Cephissus cannot have happened yet,\neither.\n\nYet she seems to know Sev. If that meeting in the\nthrone room was not her\nfirst, when could she have known him earlier, if not\nfrom their coming\nencounter (coming from Sev's point of view) after\nthe flood?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604091229y1b3c75d2i3824274c793d3beb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-09T19:29:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/9/06, Tristan Davenport wrote:\n(Question: Why are the plants\non Urth pale, while those on the moon apparently quite green?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Purely speculation but -- Lune has a less dense atmosphere, so\nthe surface receives more insolation.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060409211745.51696.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-04-09T21:17:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604091229y1b3c75d2i3824274c793d3beb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but Wolfe has also shown time and again that he his willing to forsake literal truth and internal consistency to make room for the right poetic imagery. The laws of dream and story far outweigh the laws of physics in his work, imho. Quite in keeping with the Catholic undertones of his major works, I think.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: On 4/9/06, Tristan Davenport wrote:\n(Question: Why are the plants\non Urth pale, while those on the moon apparently quite green?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Purely speculation but -- Lune has a less dense atmosphere, so\nthe surface receives more insolation.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4439B9DC.3030402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-10T01:50:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604091229y1b3c75d2i3824274c793d3beb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 4/9/06, Tristan Davenport wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Question: Why are the plants\non Urth pale, while those on the moon apparently quite green?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Purely speculation but -- Lune has a less dense atmosphere, so\nthe surface receives more insolation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but there's no guarantee that there are any plants still on \nLune at the time of the narrative. Conflation and multiplication of \nidentities over ages is a very strong theme here as in other Wolfe.\n\nThe green color could be something else entirely, and presumed to be the \nforrests of old, if it ever was. Algae farms meant to feed the many \nbillions of Earth could retain their green color from superficial, \ntopical growth even after millenia of neglect. Or some ancient ruler \ncould have proclaimed the moon be pained green in his honor.\n\nThe real answer is of course that the author really likes to write about \nblue planets with bright green companions, as he does in 5HC and SS." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-04-10T04:42:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)", "in_reply_to": "<4439B9DC.3030402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 4/9/06, Tristan Davenport wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(Question: Why are the plants\non Urth pale, while those on the moon apparently quite green?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Purely speculation but -- Lune has a less dense atmosphere, so\nthe surface receives more insolation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, but there's no guarantee that there are any plants still on\nLune at the time of the narrative. Conflation and multiplication of\nidentities over ages is a very strong theme here as in other Wolfe.\n\nThe green color could be something else entirely, [SNIP]\n\nThe real answer is of course that the author really likes to write about\nblue planets with bright green companions, as he does in 5HC and SS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems perfectly possible to me that the present plant life can strike\none as pale when seen up close, but their underlying green visible en\nmasse from a distance. But only science fiction readers would worry\nabout rationalizing such a cool effect ;) Anyway, there are plenty of\ndescriptions of \"green\" greenery in BOTNS, plus heat and humidity in the\n\"true jungle at the waist of the world\", so insolation hasn't\ndropped that much.\n\nDavid Duffy" } ] } ] }