Subject: (urth) Juturna

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:35:46 +0000

Just to muddy the waters a little more . . . earlier I wrote:

>Back in the throne room, Sev had asked her if she remembered saving him
when
>he was a boy: "No. It hasn't yet occurred. It will, because you spoke."
>(306) Very curious. Sev's pronouncement thus became a prophesy. The New Sun
>and the flood were established facts as she spoke before the throne, she
>knew for a fact that Sev would succeed in bringing the New Sun, yet she
came
>there to save him anyway that day if she could *and* she would see to it
>that she saved him from drowning in *her* future, which was *his* past. It
>seems to me that she succeeded on both counts.

The meeting in the throne room with Juturna was the third for Sev. The
second meeting was at the Cephissus river, when she tried to seduce him. At
that time she mentioned having previously saved him from drowning among the
clotted weeds in the Gyoll. Ergo, since from her perspective there in the
throne room she had yet to save him from drowning in the Gyoll, for her the
meeting at the Cephissus cannot have happened yet, either.

Yet she seems to know Sev. If that meeting in the throne room was not her
first, when could she have known him earlier, if not from their coming
encounter (coming from Sev's point of view) after the flood?

-Roy

---

From: nastler <nastler at yahoo.dk>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 09:53:49 +0000

Roy,

I don't think I have understand the problem with this.
>>From Juturnas POV she meets Sev in the throne room and
he makes his "prophesy" that she will save him from
drowning in Gyoll. She searchs "backwards" through his
life and meets Sev at the sand bank where (among other
things) she mentions that it was (will be) her that
saves him from the weeds. When she reaches the moment
where the nenuphars attempt to drown the NS she saves
him.

Why are these plants the image of "the death of the
sun" anyway? "glossy, pale leaves and azure flower."
"black roots as fine and strong as hair, reaching down
into the dark waters". What forces are represented by
these plants? Why do they wish to drown the sun? Would
they not thrive in a sunnier Ushas? Are they
non-terrestrial? I think they must be. They are
"weeds" after all. They have roots reaching into dark
waters, but are opposed by the Undines. Who can clear
this up?

nastler

--- "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> skrev:

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From: Tristan Davenport <tristan_davenport at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:02:23 +0000

>sun" anyway? "glossy, pale leaves and azure flower."

There are references throughout the NS books to the paleness of the plants; 
presumably the dying sun is not bright enough to stimulate chlorophyll 
production.  This is contrasted with the rich green of plants under a 
healthy sun.  So by the very fact of their glossy paleness, the nenuphars 
reflect the dying of the sun.  Then I suppose there's the metaphorical 
meaning of their role in Sev's near-drowning.  (Question: Why are the plants 
on Urth pale, while those on the moon apparently quite green?)

                             Tristan
                             tristan_davenport at hotmail.com

>From: nastler <nastler at yahoo.dk>
>Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>Subject: Re: (urth) Juturna (and nenuphars)
>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:53:49 +0200 (CEST)
>
>Roy,
>

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 19:29:09 +0000

On 4/9/06, Tristan Davenport <tristan_davenport at hotmail.com> wrote:
> (Question: Why are the plants

Purely speculation but -- Lune has a less dense atmosphere, so
the surface receives more insolation.

--Dan'l

--
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 21:17:45 +0000

Perhaps, but Wolfe has also shown time and again that he his willing to forsake literal truth and internal consistency to make room for the right poetic imagery. The laws of dream and story far outweigh the laws of physics in his work, imho. Quite in keeping with the Catholic undertones of his major works, I think.

Don

--Dan'l

		
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 01:50:20 +0000

> the surface receives more insolation.

Perhaps, but there's no guarantee that there are any plants still on 
Lune at the time of the narrative. Conflation and  multiplication of 
identities over ages is a very strong theme here as in other Wolfe.

The green color could be something else entirely, and presumed to be the 
forrests of old, if it ever was. Algae farms meant to feed the many 
billions of Earth could retain their green color from superficial, 
topical growth even after millenia of neglect. Or some ancient ruler 
could have proclaimed the moon be pained green in his honor.

The real answer is of course that the author really likes to write about 
blue planets with bright green companions, as he does in 5HC and SS.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 04:42:36 +0000

On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> The green color could be something else entirely, [SNIP]
>

It seems perfectly possible to me that the present plant life can strike
one as pale when seen up close, but their underlying green visible en
masse from a distance.  But only science fiction readers would worry
about rationalizing such a cool effect ;)  Anyway, there are plenty of
descriptions of "green" greenery in BOTNS, plus heat and humidity in the
"true jungle at the waist of the world", so insolation hasn't
dropped that much.

David Duffy