{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4574", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4574, "subject": "Severian's miraculous eclipse", "messages": 19, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-04-25T19:13:46+00:00", "last": "2006-04-27T12:19:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-25T19:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: /pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20060425/05c8c8f9/attachment.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604251329p426856c8r1eb879d801822e83@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-25T20:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome.\n\nIt's nice that your first post is an attack on \"received wisdom.\" There's\na kind of tradition of that around here.\n\nMy own take is that, yes, I think it's Tzadkiel who saves Severian\nwith an eclipse. The shape of the ship isn't all that relevant -- though\nit is, as you say, a \"forest\" of masts and sails, I suspect that the\naggregate silhouette (which is all that matters for this purpose)\napproximates a sphere.\n\nThe real question is how Tzad knows to do it, and exactly when to\ndo it. I don't think the Hieros are omniscient (or omni-anything), so\ntiming becomes somewhat problematic; it almost seems as if\nSeverian must have been (though unaware of it) in communication\nwith the Hieros to make it happen so perfectly ... which comes back\nto unconscious use of Star Power.\n\nI'm not bothered by the idea that he did/didn't have access to his\nalter-ego White Fountain at this point; we know he misleads us at\npoints.\n\nOne side note ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like to address an issue that was discussed in the past which\nis the eclipse which saves Severian from being killed by the primitive\ntribesmen in the early days of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Say, rather, \"earlier.\" The days of Apu-Punchau are within, say, a\ngeological period or so of Sev's time: close enough that when he's\nheading north with Dorcas and Jolenta it's still recognizeable as a\ncity (albeit ruined), and not subsumed by geological processes into,\nsay, a mine, or part of a mountain, as the _really_ old cultures\n(like ours) have been in Severian's time.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<31120640.1145998481839.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-04-25T20:54:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604251329p426856c8r1eb879d801822e83@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: /pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20060425/9332f609/attachment.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12699433.1145999185619.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-04-25T21:06:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<31120640.1145998481839.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... I was unsuccessful in separating my message from your HTML format.\nThat makes me look pretty stupid. Lets try it again.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn \nSent: Apr 25, 2006 3:54 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse\n\nWelcome mr. sharp!\n\nJust so you know, if you send your mail to the list in html format, it\nwill not be posted to the listserver and viewable in the archives. I\nsuggest sending it as in plain text. I would have spent more time a\nresponse to you, but my primary purpose is to get your post into\nthe the archives so other people who only read posts there,\ncan respond to it. It is included intact below.\n\nFor starters, I'll just say that for Tzadkiel's ship to cause an\neclipse, the total *apparent* diameter of Tzadkiel's ship from\nthe ground (including masts and sails) need only be that of a\npenny. That is really to small to differentiate the masts and\nsails from the body of the ship without the aid of a telescope,\nespecially with the sun behind it. If you've ever seen even a\npartial eclipse, you know that when the moon gets close to the\nsun, it disappears. To the unaided eye, an eclipse looks like\nthe sun is going out, not as though the moon is blocking it.\n\nIf the ship looked much larger than a penny then it might not\nhave even looked like an eclipse to an observer. It would have\nlooked like a big thing blocking the sun. A miracle, of course,\nbut not of the same sort.\n\nAside from that...well, this isn't a very fact-based argument,\nbut \"the moon caused the eclipse\" is not a very Gene Wolfe\nway of doing things.\n\n J" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: b sharp To: urth at lists.urth.net \nSubject: (urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Greetings all. Long time Wolfe fan who recently discovered\nand much more recently finished perusing the archives.\n\nI'd like to address an issue that was discussed in the past which is\nthe eclipse which saves Severian from being killed by the\nprimitive tribesmen?in the early days of Urth. It seems most\nexperts have concurred that the eclipse was caused by\nTzadkiel's ship. This explanation doesn't seem plausible to me.\nVast as that ship might be, I can't see how it could block the\nsun but not be noticible as a manufactured object. It isn't a\nsphere but rather a forest of masts and sails which I would\nthink would have to be visible as shadow as it moves on and\nstops blocking the sun. Moreover all the descriptions of the\nship suggest it wouldn't come so close to gravitational bodies\nsuch as the Urth, moon and sun. Certainly not to accomplish\nthe simple goal of dissuading a few tribal people from\ncommitting murder, since the hierogrammates seem to rely on\nagents and abilities which could accomplish the same goal so\nmuch more easily.\n\nWolfe suggests the thoughtful reader could guess what\nopaque body could have been used to block the sun. I feel he\nwas being ironic in that it wouldn't take much thought at all to\ndeduce the object used was the same one used by\n\"A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court\" and others in\nsimilar circumstance; that being the normal cause of an eclipse,\nthe moon. In Severian's time on Urth during the Typhon era\nhe demonstrated the unconscious ability to cause major\ncatastrophic natural events when he was angry or faced with\ndeath, i.e. a hurricane and an earthquake. I have always felt\nthis eclipse was a similar event, caused either by stopping the\nmoon in orbit or the earth in rotation.\n\nNow it might be argued that Severian did not have access to\nthe power of his star/white fountain at this time. It is implied\nbecause he doesn't seem to be able to travel through the\ncorridors of time back to a more pleasant era. But\nSeverian does very casually note that during his\nstay with the primitive people he heals those who are sick,\nboth with his learned skills and in the manner he used to\ncure Declan (which was done with star power). \n\nI'll leave it at that for my first post and check any feedback you might have? :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060426063213.78715DA81E@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T06:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<12699433.1145999185619.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi & welcome b sharp:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 05:13:46 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nGreetings all. Long time Wolfe fan who recently discovered and \nmuch\nmore recently finished perusing the archives. \n\nI'd like to address an issue that was discussed in the past which \nis\nthe eclipse which saves Severian from being killed by the primitive\ntribesmen in the early days of Urth. It seems most experts have\nconcurred that the eclipse was caused by Tzadkiel's ship. This\nexplanation doesn't seem plausible to me. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to side with the Tzadkiel ship explanation, but it is \ninteresting to think about what it was doing there & at that time. \n\nMaybe it was dropping a black hole into the sun? This would be a \nnice touch, I think: the beginning of the end of the Old Sun and \nthe distant birth of the New, at about the same time. \n\nI've always assumed the black hole thing happened around the time \nof Typhon, but is that necessarily the case? \n\nThe death of the Old Sun is clearly a long, long process: how long \nmust have the black hole been eating away at it, for the effects to \nbe noticeable by Typhon's time?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060426065600.CB804DA81A@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T06:55:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<20060426063213.78715DA81E@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:32:11 +1000 I wrote:\nI tend to side with the Tzadkiel ship explanation, but it is \ninteresting to think about what it was doing there & at that time. \n\n\nMaybe it was dropping a black hole into the sun? This would be a \nnice touch, I think: the beginning of the end of the Old Sun and \nthe distant birth of the New, at about the same time. \n\nI've always assumed the black hole thing happened around the time \nof Typhon, but is that necessarily the case? \n\nThe death of the Old Sun is clearly a long, long process: how long \n\nmust have the black hole been eating away at it, for the effects \nto \nbe noticeable by Typhon's time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, a long time from black hole insertion to noticeable effect on \nUrth is consistent with solar physics. Eg from the often-reliable \nWikipedia: 'Estimates of the \"photon travel time\" [from core to \nphotosphere] range from as much as 50 million years to as little as \n17,000 years.'\n\nIn story terms, I don't have UOTNS here, but isn't there a \nreference to the death of Apu Panchu being the death of the Old \nSun? Or something like that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rex Racer", "address": "rex.racerx at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T12:14:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<20060426065600.CB804DA81A@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello. I am delurking as the timelines involved have been of interest for me\nfor a good number of years.\n\nI am at work, and do not have my books handy, but I did believe the\nblackhole was inserted as punishment for Humanities' sin of taking its wars\nand strife out amongst the stars. I do believe this happened under Typhon.\nThis punishment/crisis triggered not only the Conciliator appearing, in\norder to give comfort to the people and prophesize the coming of the New\nSun, but in his arrogance (thinking he could get around the planet's death\nsentence) the Tyrant built and sent out the starcrossing Whorl with himself\nand his family as its gods- no Heirodules or other true representatives of\nthe Increate to hamper the now Pas' rule either aboard the ship or on the\nnew worlds to be settled!\n\nI thought that Apu Panchu heralded the beginning of the movement of the New\nSun (white fountain) towards Earth's sun, and not the insertion of the\nblackhole, so that it could arrive after its long voyage to Urth a the\nproper time after her epitome was found True.\n\nThere are references of the time from Typhon to Severian as being counted in\nchiliads, and when Silk is in Nessus (I personally think at this point\nSilkhorn is no longer an apt name) to bury poor, young Scylla/Cilinia (sp\nfrom memory, sorry if wrong) he says she has been dead for \"many centuries.\"\nHad the span been only 300 years as the calendar inside the Whorl seems to\nindicate (the Cargo do not seem cognizant of possible time dialation do to\nthe speed of flight of the Whorl, not even the chems, like Marble who\ndoesn't understand how her internal chronometer could be off by such a large\nfactor- and the Crew doesn't exactly chat up the Cargo about the scientific\nspecificiations of their travels, though they are friendly enough when\nencountered), I think Silk would have used \"several\" or \"a few\" centuries to\nquantify the time past.\n\nLeaving Wikipedia's reliability aside, though vastly clever and intelligent\nboth, Mr. Wolfe is telling a story so a period of about 3-4000 years from\nTyphon and the fatal stab into the Sun's heart to punish Humanity until\nHumanity and Urth's renewal is not unreasonable- to me anyway.\n\nOh, and to be actually on topic, I think that it is indeed Tzadkiel's ship,\nheralding the \"transformation\" of Severian to Apu Panchu and the birth of\nthe New Sun in its far off creche, by making all dark over Earth until the\nEpitome brought back the light so to speak, balancing his bringing of the\nNew Sun at Urth's end. Tzadkiel was with Severian in several forms during\nhis voyage to stand for all of Humanity so I can easily see him standing by\nSeverian one last time, though chronologically, the first. It just ties\ntogether so nice and symbolically.\n\nWell, for what it is worth, there is my response. Be gentle, please- it is\nmy first time!\n:-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/26/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\n\n\nOn Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:32:11 +1000 I wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I tend to side with the Tzadkiel ship explanation, but it is\ninteresting to think about what it was doing there & at that time.\n\n\nMaybe it was dropping a black hole into the sun? This would be a\nnice touch, I think: the beginning of the end of the Old Sun and\nthe distant birth of the New, at about the same time.\n\nI've always assumed the black hole thing happened around the time\nof Typhon, but is that necessarily the case?\n\nThe death of the Old Sun is clearly a long, long process: how long\n\nmust have the black hole been eating away at it, for the effects\nto\nbe noticeable by Typhon's time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, a long time from black hole insertion to noticeable effect on\nUrth is consistent with solar physics. Eg from the often-reliable\nWikipedia: 'Estimates of the \"photon travel time\" [from core to\nphotosphere] range from as much as 50 million years to as little as\n17,000 years.'\n\nIn story terms, I don't have UOTNS here, but isn't there a\nreference to the death of Apu Panchu being the death of the Old\nSun? Or something like that.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200604261327.k3QDRrL9059990@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T13:27:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Howdy Rex." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:14:26 +1000 Rex Racer \nwrote:\nHello. I am delurking as the timelines involved have been of \ninterest for me\nfor a good number of years.\n\nI am at work, and do not have my books handy, but I did believe \nthe\nblackhole was inserted as punishment for Humanities' sin of taking " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "its wars\nand strife out amongst the stars. I do believe this happened under " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But given the way the Hieros etc etc can operate out of time, it's \ncertainly possible for the punishment to be inflicted before the \ncrime, so to speak. Or at any rate, for the seeds of the punishment \nto be sewn before the crime is committed. \n\nAfter all, this is true of the agent of the redemption: the New Sun \nis created before the crime (probably, depending on whether you \nthink the Apu Panchau era is before the war-and-strife-amongst-the-\nstars era, which I do). \n\nIf the black hole thing happens in Typhon's time, then you have the \nredemption starting before the punishment, which would also be odd." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rex Racer", "address": "rex.racerx at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T15:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<200604261327.k3QDRrL9059990@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"But given the way the Hieros etc etc can operate out of time, it's\ncertainly possible for the punishment to be inflicted before the\ncrime, so to speak. Or at any rate, for the seeds of the punishment\nto be sewn before the crime is committed.\"\n\nI guess that to me rings wrongly- it just doesn't seem to fit in with\ncertain (admittedly Christian (Catholic for me)) ideals of wrong and\npunishment, especially taking into account the meaning of Severian's\nname at that time (and please correct me if I misrecollect) as \"Head\nof Dawn.\" Apu is the beginning of the New Sun that will come (as The\nConciliator is its herald and Severian its self), not the beginning of\nthe punishment that necessitates its coming- at least to me.\n\nThe redemption being at hand before the punishment makes sense to me,\nin as much as the Redeemer existed before we who needed redeeming in\ntheology; so the mechanism for Urth's renewal, once the Epitome had\nbeen found (found himself?) worthy of it happening could take place in\nthe past. Several times, it is mentioned that some knew already\nSeverian had passed his test because of the powers he had which came\nnot from the claw, but his connection to his extra-solar self- the New\nSun.\n\nI can see Heirodules planting the seeds of success in the distant\npast, but it strikes me as uncharacteristically vindictive to my\nreading of their characters for them to punish ahead of time. That\npart of the book is hopeful and positive and someone the planting of\nthe black hole during that part seems to run counter to energia of\nthat moment in the text.\n\nI can see where you are coming from, and we may be looking at the same\ncoin, but different sides; still, I must at this time respectfully\ndisagree and hold to my thought that the black hole came to be when\nthe offense occurred- that is, under The Monarch Typhon.\n\nQuick Addendum about how long Triskele was with Severian: I just\nalways figured Severian was playing loose with the truth again, as he\ndoes throughout his own text; I can see a young man given to\nstretching or glossing over the truth trying to impress his odd,\nseemingly fantastic visitors with various non-truths. I do not think\nMr. Wolfe nodded here, nor do I think Silk had an effect on the\nhistory found in the Book of the New Sun. I think Severian was\nfibbing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rex Racer", "address": "rex.racerx at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T15:19:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<200604261327.k3QDRrL9059990@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, and \"hello\"- I apologize for seeming rudeness, and wanted to\nacknowledge your greeting. No more off topic messages, I promise!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/26/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nHowdy Rex." } ] }, { "message_id": "<444F8FBC.1020501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T15:20:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rex Racer wrote:\nI thought that Apu Panchu heralded the beginning of the movement of the \nNew Sun (white fountain) towards Earth's sun, and not the insertion of \nthe blackhole, so that it could arrive after its long voyage to Urth a \nthe proper time after her epitome was found True." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This isn't necessary in a Christian allegory about an eternal \nPancreator; just as Christ was present at the Creation before there was \nanyone to be saved, it's fitting that the Pancreator, foreseeing the \nsorrowful misdeeds of mankind, sent the white fountain toward the earth \nages before it was needed, to give it time to complete its ages-long \njourney. Apu Punchau greets the first light of the WF reaching earth, \nbut doubtless it had been on its way already." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<444F92CA.4070305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T15:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604251329p426856c8r1eb879d801822e83@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWelcome." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Say, rather, \"earlier.\" The days of Apu-Punchau are within, say, a\ngeological period or so of Sev's time: close enough that when he's\nheading north with Dorcas and Jolenta it's still recognizeable as a\ncity (albeit ruined), and not subsumed by geological processes into,\nsay, a mine, or part of a mountain, as the _really_ old cultures\n(like ours) have been in Severian's time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you can support more than a few hundred centuries' \nseparation between the eras. the stuff in the mines and mountain sides \nis easily explainable by the same technology that makes mountains into \nfigures of rulers. And, \"apu\" is a surviving word for \"god\" and \n\"mountain\" (they're the same thing as far as the Quecha are concerned).\n\n\nHmm, so the engines of Typhon literally make new gods out of old...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rex Racer", "address": "rex.racerx at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T15:36:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<444F8FBC.1020501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. You have expressed it better than I, but that is largely my\npoint, and why I do not see the black hole being inserted in the sun\nwhen the affirmation of life that is the first light of the FW reaches\nearth. It seems to break the symbolism of the text at that point for\nme.\n\nI see the seed of redemption preceding the need for it, but I do not\nsee the seeds of punishment being sown before the crime has been\ncomitted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/26/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nRex Racer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought that Apu Panchu heralded the beginning of the movement of the\nNew Sun (white fountain) towards Earth's sun, and not the insertion of\nthe blackhole, so that it could arrive after its long voyage to Urth a\nthe proper time after her epitome was found True." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't necessary in a Christian allegory about an eternal\nPancreator; just as Christ was present at the Creation before there was\nanyone to be saved, it's fitting that the Pancreator, foreseeing the\nsorrowful misdeeds of mankind, sent the white fountain toward the earth\nages before it was needed, to give it time to complete its ages-long\njourney. Apu Punchau greets the first light of the WF reaching earth,\nbut doubtless it had been on its way already.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c66967$65405260$aa3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-04-26T19:26:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings, Rex" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, for what it is worth, there is my response. Be gentle, please- it is\nmy first time! :-) <<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fwiw, and speaking in general terms, I think you got it right.\n\nI don't think there's much room for doubt that the sun was wounded in\nTyphon's era. That's why he mentioned his scientists' errors in calculating\nthe effects of the black hole. The decline in the sun's activity, in just a\n\"few years\", led to famine and riots.\n\nWhether the decline of the sun was caused directly by the Hierodules or\nTyphon doesn't really matter, in a religious sense. It can -- and probably\nwill -- be argued that Typhon, if he did it, like Satan, was doing the\nIncreate's bidding, whether he intended to or not.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604261329m51cd8558w6ed7533b0315255b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T20:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c66967$65405260$aa3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/26/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI don't think there's much room for doubt that the sun was wounded in\nTyphon's era. That's why he mentioned his scientists' errors in\ncalculating the effects of the black hole. The decline in the sun's\nactivity, in just a \"few years\", led to famine and riots." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. In fact, I always took this to mean that Typhon's scientists\nhad actually _put_ the Black Hole into the Old Sun, at his\nbehest.\n\nWhy? Only speculations here -- perhaps as part of his plans to\nreturn to the stars; perhaps because he felt that Urth really should\nnot continue once he was gone.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T21:12:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604261329m51cd8558w6ed7533b0315255b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mssrs. Lackey and Danehy-Oakes writing respectively:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think there's much room for doubt that the sun was wounded in\nTyphon's era. That's why he mentioned his scientists' errors in\ncalculating the effects of the black hole." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep. In fact, I always took this to mean that Typhon's scientists\nhad actually _put_ the Black Hole into the Old Sun, at his\nbehest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to belie Sev's response to the villager in _Urth_ who, in \nreferencing early snowfalls two years in a row, proclaims, \"The sky people \nare angry at us.\"\n\nSeverian: \"\"The sky people--*the Hierodules and Hierarchs*--do not hate us. \nIt is only that they are remote from us, and they fear us because of things \nwe did before, long ago when our race was young.\"\n\nErgo, it seems Typhon had no direct involvement.\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000401c66982$1089f760$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-04-26T22:37:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSay, rather, \"earlier.\" The days of Apu-Punchau are within, say, a \ngeological period or so of Sev's time: close enough that when he's \nheading north with Dorcas and Jolenta it's still recognizeable as a \ncity (albeit ruined), and not subsumed by geological processes into, \nsay, a mine, or part of a mountain, as the _really_ old cultures (like" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ours) have been in Severian's time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I think b_sharp is correct here, that Apu-Punchau is from \"the\nearly days of Urth.\" That is, from our own history. The clincher is that\nwhen Famulimus and co find Severian among these people she says she is\nsurprised to find him \"where men have scarce begun.\" That statement\nalone puts us at the dawn of history.\n\nEven before The Urth of the New Sun came out I always got the impression\nthat Apu Punchau's town was supposed to originate some time in our own\npast. The way Merryn talks about it in Conciliator, it sounds seriously,\nmajor league old.\n\nIt also sounds as if it may now exist outside of normal time. The\nherdsman tells Severian at some length how spooky this place is, and\nparticularly that it \"bends\" your path so that you must always pass\nthrough it. This reminds Severian of the Botanical Gardens, and me too.\nIn the Urth books, time-travel is regularly linked to movement through\nspace.\n\nI quite agree that if periods of future history have become geological\nstrata, then anything as old as an Incan or pre-Incan city should be\nlong gone. But I think Apu-Punchau's town, or at least his tomb, has\nbeen supernaturally preserved. Severian actually asks \"why is his palace\nstill standing when the rest of the town is only tumbled stones?\" so\nit's clear something funny is going on.\n\nNeedless to say he never gets a straight answer. But \"because it\ncontained the body of a miracle-working, time-travelling demigod\" works\nfor me. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44503548.5080008@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-27T03:06:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mournings glory wrote:\nMssrs. Lackey and Danehy-Oakes writing respectively:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think there's much room for doubt that the sun was wounded in\nTyphon's era. That's why he mentioned his scientists' errors in\ncalculating the effects of the black hole." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yep. In fact, I always took this to mean that Typhon's scientists\nhad actually _put_ the Black Hole into the Old Sun, at his\nbehest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to belie Sev's response to the villager in _Urth_ who, in \nreferencing early snowfalls two years in a row, proclaims, \"The sky people \nare angry at us.\"\n\nSeverian: \"\"The sky people--*the Hierodules and Hierarchs*--do not hate us. \nIt is only that they are remote from us, and they fear us because of things \nwe did before, long ago when our race was young.\"\n\nErgo, it seems Typhon had no direct involvement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall correctly, Typhon was the *last* stellar tyrant, not the \nfirst, and actively sought to copy or surpass the accomplishments of his \npredecessors. Thus, the hieros could be fearing the fell deeds of the \nearler tyrants, while Typhon's hand in damaging the Old Sun was the last \n(and admittedly largest) black mark in a very long line of them on \nhumanity's record." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-27T12:19:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<44503548.5080008@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for all the helpful responses! I'm not the most computer literate but \nI think this is now in plain text and postable.\n\nI am almost ready to bow to the \"received wisdom\" regarding Tzadkiel's ship \nas the source of the eclipse though I am still clinging a bit to Sev's own \nability to create natural phenomena, such as hurricanes and earthquakes, as \na possible cause. Are there some who question that Sev caused the earthquake \nwhen hit by the convulsor in the courtyard?\n\nI think I will agree with Tony Ellis (and Famulimus) that Apu Punchau lives \nin a time period previous to our own and that special forces keep the Stone \nTown as preserved as it is in Sev's time. Unlike the primitive villages and \ntowns of the future, Wolfe gives no hints here of a greater civilization \nexisting previous to Apu-Punchau such as advanced relics or artifacts. He \nmakes no suggestion there is a larger civilization somewhere dominating and \ndemanding tribute from Apu Punchau's village. Faced with an attack by \nnomads, the village has only its own defenses to rely on.This suggests this \nis a pre-Pizarro and probably pre-Incan (1400's) empire village.\n\nThe question of the black hole (the flaw, the claw) being placed in our sun \nwas brought up to explain what Tzadkiel's ship might be doing there at the \n\"dawn of history\". I like the symmetry of the black hole and the white \nfountain being created simultaneously in our distant past and then reunited \nin our far-flung future. Severian ran through the Corridors of Time (Brook \nMadregot?) until he couldn't, suggesting he stopped at the time of the \ncreation of the white fountain. And also at the time of creation of the \nblack hole? Has the black hole (size of a penny?) been very slowly eating at \nthe sun through our history and lifetimes but not noticeable until the time \nof Typhon?\n\nIf Severian, as the New Sun, brings the white fountain, might he also, as \nDark Sun, Head of the Day, bring the black hole? Do humanity's sins \n(execution of a savior) extend far before Typhon to our earliest roots? Is \nthere any way that this bringing of the black hole (not the \"opaque body\") \nis the cause of the eclipse? Could Apu Punchau have been killed in the year \n33 A.D. (isn't Sev about 33 years old at this point?)" } ] } ] }