Subject: (urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:13:46 +0000

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:29:14 +0000

Welcome.

It's nice that your first post is an attack on "received wisdom." There's
a kind of tradition of that around here.

My own take is that, yes, I think it's Tzadkiel who saves Severian
with an eclipse. The shape of the ship isn't all that relevant -- though
it is, as you say, a "forest" of masts and sails, I suspect that the
aggregate silhouette (which is all that matters for this purpose)
approximates a sphere.

The real question is how Tzad knows to do it, and exactly when to
do it. I don't think the Hieros are omniscient (or omni-anything), so
timing becomes somewhat problematic; it almost seems as if
Severian must have been (though unaware of it) in communication
with the Hieros to make it happen so perfectly ... which comes back
to unconscious use of Star Power.

I'm not bothered by the idea that he did/didn't have access to his
alter-ego White Fountain at this point; we know he misleads us at
points.

One side note ...

> I'd like to address an issue that was discussed in the past which
> is the eclipse which saves Severian from being killed by the primitive
> tribesmen in the early days of Urth.

Say, rather, "earlier." The days of Apu-Punchau are within, say, a
geological period or so of Sev's time: close enough that when he's
heading north with Dorcas and Jolenta it's still recognizeable as a
city (albeit ruined), and not subsumed by geological processes into,
say, a mine, or part of a mountain, as the _really_ old cultures
(like ours) have been in Severian's time.

--Dan'l

--
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:54:41 +0000

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:06:25 +0000

Hmmm... I was unsuccessful in separating my message from your HTML format.
That makes me look pretty stupid. Lets try it again.

-----Original Message-----
From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Sent: Apr 25, 2006 3:54 PM
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse

Welcome mr. sharp!

Just so you know, if you send your mail to the list in html format, it
will not be posted to the listserver and viewable in the archives. I
suggest sending it as in plain text. I would have spent more time a
response to you, but my primary purpose is to get your post into
the the archives so other people who only read posts there,
can respond to it. It is included intact below.

For starters, I'll just say that for Tzadkiel's ship to cause an
eclipse, the total *apparent* diameter of Tzadkiel's ship from
the ground (including masts and sails) need only be that of a
penny. That is really to small to differentiate the masts and
sails from the body of the ship without the aid of a telescope,
especially with the sun behind it. If you've ever seen even a
partial eclipse, you know that when the moon gets close to the
sun, it disappears. To the unaided eye, an eclipse looks like
the sun is going out, not as though the moon is blocking it.

If the ship looked much larger than a penny then it might not
have even looked like an eclipse to an observer. It would have
looked like a big thing blocking the sun. A miracle, of course,
but not of the same sort.</DIV>

Aside from that...well, this isn't a very fact-based argument,
but "the moon caused the eclipse" is not a very Gene Wolfe
way of doing things.

 J

>-----Original Message-----
>From: b sharp <BSHARPORFLAT at HOTMAIL.COM
>Sent: Apr 25, 2006 2:13 PM <BR>To: urth at lists.urth.net 
>Subject: (urth) Severian's miraculous eclipse

>Greetings all. Long time Wolfe fan who recently discovered
>and much more recently finished perusing the archives.
>
>I'd like to address an issue that was discussed in the past which is
>the eclipse which saves Severian from being killed by the
>primitive tribesmen?in the early days of Urth. It seems most
>experts have concurred that the eclipse was caused by
>Tzadkiel's ship. This explanation doesn't seem plausible to me.
>Vast as that ship might be, I can't see how it could block the
>sun but not be noticible as a manufactured object. It isn't a
>sphere but rather a forest of masts and sails which I would
>think would have to be visible as shadow as it moves on and
>stops blocking the sun. Moreover all the descriptions of the
>ship suggest it wouldn't come so close to gravitational bodies
>such as the Urth, moon and sun. Certainly not to accomplish
>the simple goal of dissuading a few tribal people from
>committing murder, since the hierogrammates seem to rely on
>agents and abilities which could accomplish the same goal so
>much more easily.</DIV>
>
>Wolfe suggests the thoughtful reader could guess what
>opaque body could have been used to block the sun. I feel he
>was being ironic in that it wouldn't take much thought at all to
>deduce the object used was the same one used by
>"A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court" and others in
>similar circumstance; that being the normal cause of an eclipse,
>the moon. In Severian's time on Urth during the Typhon era
>he demonstrated the unconscious ability to cause major
>catastrophic natural events when he was angry or faced with
>death, i.e. a hurricane and an earthquake. I have always felt
>this eclipse was a similar event, caused either by stopping the
>moon in orbit or the earth in rotation.
>
>Now it might be argued that Severian did not have access to
>the power of his star/white fountain at this time. It is implied
>because he doesn't seem to be able to travel through the
>corridors of time back to a more pleasant era. But
>Severian does very casually note that during his
>stay with the primitive people he heals those who are sick,
>both with his learned skills and in the manner he used to
>cure Declan (which was done with star power). </DIV>
>
>I'll leave it at that for my first post and check any feedback you might have? :-)

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:32:11 +0000

Hi & welcome b sharp:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 05:13:46 +1000 b sharp 
<bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Greetings all.  Long time Wolfe fan who recently discovered and 
>much
>more recently finished perusing the archives. 
>
>is
>the eclipse which saves Severian from being killed by the primitive
>tribesmen in the early days of Urth.  It seems most experts have
>concurred that the eclipse was caused by Tzadkiel's ship.  This
>explanation doesn't seem plausible to me.  

I tend to side with the Tzadkiel ship explanation, but it is 
interesting to think about what it was doing there & at that time. 

Maybe it was dropping a black hole into the sun? This would be a 
nice touch, I think: the beginning of the end of the Old Sun and 
the distant birth of the New, at about the same time. 

I've always assumed the black hole thing happened around the time 
of Typhon, but is that necessarily the case? 

The death of the Old Sun is clearly a long, long process: how long 
must have the black hole been eating away at it, for the effects to 
be noticeable by Typhon's time?

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:55:59 +0000

>be noticeable by Typhon's time?

FWIW, a long time from black hole insertion to noticeable effect on 
Urth is consistent with solar physics. Eg from the often-reliable 
Wikipedia: 'Estimates of the "photon travel time" [from core to 
photosphere] range from as much as 50 million years to as little as 
17,000 years.'

In story terms, I don't have UOTNS here, but isn't there a 
reference to the death of Apu Panchu being the death of the Old 
Sun? Or something like that.

---

From: Rex Racer <rex.racerx at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:14:26 +0000

Hello. I am delurking as the timelines involved have been of interest for me
for a good number of years.

I am at work, and do not have my books handy, but I did believe the
blackhole was inserted as punishment for Humanities' sin of taking its wars
and strife out amongst the stars. I do believe this happened under Typhon.
This punishment/crisis triggered not only the Conciliator appearing, in
order to give comfort to the people and prophesize the coming of the New
Sun, but in his arrogance (thinking he could get around the planet's death
sentence) the Tyrant built and sent out the starcrossing Whorl with himself
and his family as its gods- no Heirodules or other true representatives of
the Increate to hamper the now Pas' rule either aboard the ship or on the
new worlds to be settled!

I thought that Apu Panchu heralded the beginning of the movement of the New
Sun (white fountain) towards Earth's sun, and not the insertion of the
blackhole, so that it could arrive after its long voyage to Urth a the
proper time after her epitome was found True.

There are references of the time from Typhon to Severian as being counted in
chiliads, and when Silk is in Nessus (I personally think at this point
Silkhorn is no longer an apt name) to bury poor, young Scylla/Cilinia (sp
from memory, sorry if wrong) he says she has been dead for "many centuries."
Had the span been only 300 years as the calendar inside the Whorl seems to
indicate (the Cargo do not seem cognizant of possible time dialation do to
the speed of flight of the Whorl, not even the chems, like Marble who
doesn't understand how her internal chronometer could be off by such a large
factor- and the Crew doesn't exactly chat up the Cargo about the scientific
specificiations of their travels, though they are friendly enough when
encountered), I think Silk would have used "several" or "a few" centuries to
quantify the time past.

Leaving Wikipedia's reliability aside, though vastly clever and intelligent
both, Mr. Wolfe is telling a story so a period of about 3-4000 years from
Typhon and the fatal stab into the Sun's heart to punish Humanity until
Humanity and Urth's renewal is not unreasonable- to me anyway.

Oh, and to be actually on topic, I think that it is indeed Tzadkiel's ship,
heralding the "transformation" of Severian to Apu Panchu and the birth of
the New Sun in its far off creche, by making all dark over Earth until the
Epitome brought back the light so to speak, balancing his bringing of the
New Sun at Urth's end. Tzadkiel was with Severian in several forms during
his voyage to stand for all of Humanity so I can easily see him standing by
Severian one last time, though chronologically, the first. It just ties
together so nice and symbolically.

Well, for what it is worth, there is my response. Be gentle, please- it is
my first time!
:-)

On 4/26/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
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> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:27:48 +0000

Howdy Rex.

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:14:26 +1000 Rex Racer <rex.racerx at gmail.com> 
wrote:
>blackhole was inserted as punishment for Humanities' sin of taking 

>its wars
>and strife out amongst the stars. I do believe this happened under 

>Typhon.

But given the way the Hieros etc etc can operate out of time, it's 
certainly possible for the punishment to be inflicted before the 
crime, so to speak. Or at any rate, for the seeds of the punishment 
to be sewn before the crime is committed. 

After all, this is true of the agent of the redemption: the New Sun 
is created before the crime (probably, depending on whether you 
think the Apu Panchau era is before the war-and-strife-amongst-the-
stars era, which I do). 

If the black hole thing happens in Typhon's time, then you have the 
redemption starting before the punishment, which would also be odd.

---

From: Rex Racer <rex.racerx at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:15:43 +0000

"But given the way the Hieros etc etc can operate out of time, it's
certainly possible for the punishment to be inflicted before the
crime, so to speak. Or at any rate, for the seeds of the punishment
to be sewn before the crime is committed."

I guess that to me rings wrongly- it just doesn't seem to fit in with
certain (admittedly Christian (Catholic for me)) ideals of wrong and
punishment, especially taking into account the meaning of Severian's
name at that time (and please correct me if I misrecollect) as "Head
of Dawn." Apu is the beginning of the New Sun that will come (as The
Conciliator is its herald and Severian its self), not the beginning of
the punishment that necessitates its coming- at least to me.

The redemption being at hand before the punishment makes sense to me,
in as much as the Redeemer existed before we who needed redeeming in
theology; so the mechanism for Urth's renewal, once the Epitome had
been found (found himself?) worthy of it happening could take place in
the past. Several times, it is mentioned that some knew already
Severian had passed his test because of the powers he had which came
not from the claw, but his connection to his extra-solar self- the New
Sun.

I can see Heirodules planting the seeds of success in the distant
past, but it strikes me as uncharacteristically vindictive to my
reading of their characters for them to punish ahead of time. That
part of the book is hopeful and positive and someone the planting of
the black hole during that part seems to run counter to energia of
that moment in the text.

I can see where you are coming from, and we may be looking at the same
coin, but different sides; still, I must at this time respectfully
disagree and hold to my thought that the black hole came to be when
the offense occurred- that is, under The Monarch Typhon.

Quick Addendum about how long Triskele was with Severian: I just
always figured Severian was playing loose with the truth again, as he
does throughout his own text; I can see a young man given to
stretching or glossing over the truth trying to impress his odd,
seemingly fantastic visitors with various non-truths. I do not think
Mr. Wolfe nodded here, nor do I think Silk had an effect on the
history found in the Book of the New Sun. I think Severian was
fibbing.

---

From: Rex Racer <rex.racerx at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:19:48 +0000

Oh, and "hello"- I apologize for seeming rudeness, and wanted to
acknowledge your greeting. No more off topic messages, I promise!

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:20:28 +0000

Rex Racer wrote:
> I thought that Apu Panchu heralded the beginning of the movement of the 
> New Sun (white fountain) towards Earth's sun, and not the insertion of 
> the blackhole, so that it could arrive after its long voyage to Urth a 
> the proper time after her epitome was found True.

This isn't necessary in a Christian allegory about an eternal 
Pancreator; just as Christ was present at the Creation before there was 
anyone to be saved, it's fitting that the Pancreator, foreseeing the 
sorrowful misdeeds of mankind, sent the white fountain toward the earth 
ages before it was needed, to give it time to complete its ages-long 
journey.  Apu Punchau greets the first light of the WF reaching earth, 
but doubtless it had been on its way already.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:33:30 +0000

> (like ours) have been in Severian's time.

I don't think you can support more than a few hundred centuries' 
separation between the eras. the stuff in the mines and mountain sides 
is easily explainable by the same technology that makes mountains into 
figures of rulers. And, "apu" is a surviving word for "god" and 
"mountain" (they're the same thing as far as the Quecha are concerned).

Hmm, so the engines of Typhon literally make new gods out of old....

---

From: Rex Racer <rex.racerx at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:36:42 +0000

Thank you. You have expressed it better than I, but that is largely my
point, and why I do not see the black hole being inserted in the sun
when the affirmation of life that is the first light of the FW reaches
earth. It seems to break the symbolism of the text at that point for
me.

I see the seed of redemption preceding the need for it, but I do not
see the seeds of punishment being sown before the crime has been
comitted.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:26:58 +0000

Greetings, Rex

>>Well, for what it is worth, there is my response. Be gentle, please- it is
my first time! :-) <<

Fwiw, and speaking in general terms, I think you got it right.

I don't think there's much room for doubt that the sun was wounded in
Typhon's era. That's why he mentioned his scientists' errors in calculating
the effects of the black hole. The decline in the sun's activity, in just a
"few years", led to famine and riots.

Whether the decline of the sun was caused directly by the Hierodules or
Typhon doesn't really matter, in a religious sense. It can -- and probably
will <g> -- be argued that Typhon, if he did it, like Satan, was doing the
Increate's bidding, whether he intended to or not.

-Roy

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:29:46 +0000

On 4/26/06, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:
> Typhon's era. That's why he mentioned his scientists' errors in
> calculating the effects of the black hole. The decline in the sun's
> activity, in just a "few years", led to famine and riots.

Yep. In fact, I always took this to mean that Typhon's scientists
had actually _put_ the Black Hole into the Old Sun, at his
behest.

Why? Only speculations here -- perhaps as part of his plans to
return to the stars; perhaps because he felt that Urth really should
not continue once he was gone.

--Dan'l

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:12:11 +0000

Mssrs. Lackey and Danehy-Oakes writing respectively:

> > calculating the effects of the black hole.

>had actually _put_ the Black Hole into the Old Sun, at his

This seems to belie Sev's response to the villager in _Urth_ who, in 
referencing early snowfalls two years in a row, proclaims, "The sky people 
are angry at us."

Severian: ""The sky people--*the Hierodules and Hierarchs*--do not hate us. 
It is only that they are remote from us, and they fear us because of things 
we did before, long ago when our race was young."

Ergo, it seems Typhon had no direct involvement.

em

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:37:56 +0000

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

> say, a mine, or part of a mountain, as the _really_ old cultures (like

> ours) have been in Severian's time.

Actually I think b_sharp is correct here, that Apu-Punchau is from "the
early days of Urth." That is, from our own history. The clincher is that
when Famulimus and co find Severian among these people she says she is
surprised to find him "where men have scarce begun." That statement
alone puts us at the dawn of history.

Even before The Urth of the New Sun came out I always got the impression
that Apu Punchau's town was supposed to originate some time in our own
past. The way Merryn talks about it in Conciliator, it sounds seriously,
major league old.

It also sounds as if it may now exist outside of normal time. The
herdsman tells Severian at some length how spooky this place is, and
particularly that it "bends" your path so that you must always pass
through it. This reminds Severian of the Botanical Gardens, and me too.
In the Urth books, time-travel is regularly linked to movement through
space.

I quite agree that if periods of future history have become geological
strata, then anything as old as an Incan or pre-Incan city should be
long gone. But I think Apu-Punchau's town, or at least his tomb, has
been supernaturally preserved. Severian actually asks "why is his palace
still standing when the rest of the town is only tumbled stones?" so
it's clear something funny is going on.

Needless to say he never gets a straight answer. But "because it
contained the body of a miracle-working, time-travelling demigod" works
for me.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:06:48 +0000

> Ergo, it seems Typhon had no direct involvement.

If I recall correctly, Typhon was the *last* stellar tyrant, not the 
first, and actively sought to copy or surpass the accomplishments of his 
predecessors. Thus, the hieros could be fearing the fell deeds of the 
earler tyrants, while Typhon's hand in damaging the Old Sun was the last 
(and admittedly largest) black mark in a very long line of them on 
humanity's record.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:19:16 +0000

Thanks for all the helpful responses! I'm not the most computer literate but 
I think this is now in plain text and postable.

I am almost ready to bow to the "received wisdom" regarding Tzadkiel's ship 
as the source of the eclipse though I am still clinging a bit to Sev's  own 
ability to create natural phenomena, such as hurricanes and earthquakes, as 
a possible cause. Are there some who question that Sev caused the earthquake 
when hit by the convulsor in the courtyard?

I think I will agree with Tony Ellis (and Famulimus) that Apu Punchau lives 
in a time period previous to our own and that special forces keep the Stone 
Town as preserved as it is in Sev's time.  Unlike the primitive villages and 
towns of the future, Wolfe gives no hints here of a greater civilization 
existing previous to Apu-Punchau such as advanced relics or artifacts.  He 
makes no suggestion there is a larger civilization somewhere dominating and 
demanding tribute from Apu Punchau's village.  Faced with an attack by 
nomads, the village has only its own defenses to rely on.This suggests this 
is a pre-Pizarro and probably pre-Incan (1400's) empire village.

The question of the black hole (the flaw, the claw) being placed in our sun 
was brought up to explain what Tzadkiel's ship might be doing there at the 
"dawn of history".  I like the symmetry of the black hole and the white 
fountain being created simultaneously in our distant past and then reunited 
in our far-flung future. Severian ran through the Corridors of Time (Brook 
Madregot?) until he couldn't, suggesting he stopped at the time of the 
creation of the white fountain.  And also at the time of creation of the 
black hole? Has the black hole (size of a penny?) been very slowly eating at 
the sun through our history and lifetimes but not noticeable until the time 
of Typhon?

If Severian, as the New Sun, brings the white fountain, might he also, as 
Dark Sun, Head of the Day, bring the black hole?  Do humanity's sins 
(execution of a savior) extend far before Typhon to our earliest roots?  Is 
there any way that this bringing of the black hole (not the "opaque body") 
is the cause of the eclipse?  Could Apu Punchau have been killed in the year 
33 A.D. (isn't Sev about 33 years old at this point?)