{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4576", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4576, "subject": "More on Juturna", "messages": 12, "voices": 8, "first": "2006-04-28T06:21:30+00:00", "last": "2006-04-29T07:33:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000c01c66a8c$00ade580$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-04-28T06:21:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pursuant to what I posted earlier this month: In the last paragraph of\nchapter 30 of CITADEL, the aquastor Malrubius said, \"\"No, we do not take you\nto the paramours of Abaia, those who spared and succored you because you had\nbeen a torturer and would be Autarch.\"\n\nThis reinforces what I said earlier, that the undines knew all along that\nSeverian would be autarch. They knew it the same way the aquastor and the\nHierodules knew it -- they had seen the future. There is no logical reason\nwhy the undines' (and therefore Abaia's) future knowledge should have\nstopped at that day in the throne room, and we know it went that far because\nJuturna was there that day. And we know she was still there after the Flood.\n\nThe quote suggests not only that Juturna saved his life (would save, from\nher perspective), but \"spared\" also suggests that she (or other undines)\nhad/would have Severian in a position to kill him, but chose not to. That\nmay or may not pertain to the drowning incident in the Gyoll. But \"succored\"\nimplies that they actually *helped* to further his career. Now, when would\nthat have been (or would be)?\n\nAmong other things, all this suggests to me that Baldanders was never a\ncontender for the throne. Both the Hierodules and the undines knew all along\nwho would be autarch. Baldanders was nothing more than a curiosity. He also\nknew, when the Hierodules knelt to Severian at the castle, who would be\nautarch.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-28T08:06:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c66a8c$00ade580$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If, as you say, there is no reason the undines' future knowledge doesn't \nextend to the flood, then it implies that Severian gave them what they \nwanted - otherwise if they knew he'd fail to deliver, they wouldn't have \nbothered to spare him.\n\nSo are you saying that Abaia really won in the end?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pursuant to what I posted earlier this month: In the last paragraph of\nchapter 30 of CITADEL, the aquastor Malrubius said, \"\"No, we do not take \nyou\nto the paramours of Abaia, those who spared and succored you because you \nhad\nbeen a torturer and would be Autarch.\"\n\nThis reinforces what I said earlier, that the undines knew all along that\nSeverian would be autarch. They knew it the same way the aquastor and the\nHierodules knew it -- they had seen the future. There is no logical reason\nwhy the undines' (and therefore Abaia's) future knowledge should have\nstopped at that day in the throne room, and we know it went that far \nbecause\nJuturna was there that day. And we know she was still there after the \nFlood.\n\nThe quote suggests not only that Juturna saved his life (would save, from\nher perspective), but \"spared\" also suggests that she (or other undines)\nhad/would have Severian in a position to kill him, but chose not to. That\nmay or may not pertain to the drowning incident in the Gyoll. But \n\"succored\"\nimplies that they actually *helped* to further his career. Now, when would\nthat have been (or would be)?\n\nAmong other things, all this suggests to me that Baldanders was never a\ncontender for the throne. Both the Hierodules and the undines knew all \nalong\nwho would be autarch. Baldanders was nothing more than a curiosity. He also\nknew, when the Hierodules knelt to Severian at the castle, who would be\nautarch.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-28T11:34:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is a mistake to assume the desires of Juturna are (in all times) \nthe same as those of Abaia. Abaia is not interested in the physical \ndomination of Urth but rather the acquisition of slaves. I suspect Abaia's \nharem of brides/daughters may not be happy with their roles but rather \nforced into compliance in some manner.\n\nSome evidence for this exists in the quasi-Theseus story that Severian tells \nJonas. If the naviscaput leviathan in that story is a reference to Abaia \nthen could the Corn Maidens, taken against their will, be the analog to the \nundines?\n\nOr perhaps even closer, for Juturna, would be the monster's daughter (can't \nremember her name). She helps the hero defeat the naviscaput because she is \nthe product of her father raping her mother. Perhaps some of Juturna's \nactions in helping Severian can be seen in this light.\n\nTo me the undines (Juturna, Idas) project a sense of unhappy desperation in \ntheir direct dealings with Severian until the final scene where Juturna is \nhappily munching on fish and seems calmly pleased to help Severian with no \nstrings attached. Perhaps in some unexplained manner the New Sun has freed \nthe undines." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-04-28T13:14:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, b sharp wrote:\nJonas. If the naviscaput leviathan in that story is a reference to Abaia\nthen could the Corn Maidens, taken against their will, be the analog to the\nundines?\n\nTo me the undines (Juturna, Idas) project a sense of unhappy desperation in\ntheir direct dealings with Severian until the final scene where Juturna is\nhappily munching on fish and seems calmly pleased to help Severian with no\nstrings attached. Perhaps in some unexplained manner the New Sun has freed\nthe undines." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds one of the various female Aelf in Wizard-Knight." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c66af0$7c30b520$613ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-04-28T18:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nIf, as you say, there is no reason the undines' future knowledge doesn't\nextend to the flood, then it implies that Severian gave them what they\nwanted - otherwise if they knew he'd fail to deliver, they wouldn't have\nbothered to spare him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I worded it clumsily. I was saying that there is no reason the\nundines' future knowledge doesn't extend *past* the flood, since, based on\nthe fact that the Gyoll drowning incident had yet to happen (for Juturna) on\nthe day of the flood, she seemed to be living, or at least operating,\ncontrary to the normal flow of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So are you saying that Abaia really won in the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about winning, but I'm not so sure he lost, either.\nPostdiluvian Juturna, at least, seemed to be getting along just fine. And,\nas I think Andrew pointed out, in the end Severian-the-Conciliator found\nhimself a petty god in a pantheon of petty gods modeled on the autarch's\ncourt. That seems to me quite a come-down.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10604281124r1bf0e591q63da1ad951567219@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-28T18:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c66af0$7c30b520$613ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet...but do Juturna & Co. necessarily\nhave to possess the power to see the future themselves? What I mean is,\ncouldn't someone or something else (cacogens, Abaia, etc.) have just *told*\nvarious Undines pieces of the future? Why do we need to assume the undines\nhave that ability themselves?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/28/06, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nMaybe I worded it clumsily. I was saying that there is no reason the\nundines' future knowledge doesn't extend *past* the flood, since, based on\nthe fact that the Gyoll drowning incident had yet to happen (for Juturna) on\nthe day of the flood, she seemed to be living, or at least operating,\ncontrary to the normal flow of time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-28T18:24:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: b#" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is a mistake to assume the desires of Juturna are (in all times)\nthe same as those of Abaia. Abaia is not interested in the physical\ndomination of Urth but rather the acquisition of slaves. I suspect Abaia's\nharem of brides/daughters may not be happy with their roles but rather\nforced into compliance in some manner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've another theory yet -- could the undines be the equivalent of alien Mata \nHaris and therefore be agents of the Hierodules?\n\n1) Their names (Juturna, Idas) seem closer in affinity to the friendlier \nextrasolarians of New Sun (Barbatus, Famulimus, Ossipago) than the \nteratonymic Megatherians (Abaia, Arioch, Erebus).\n\n2) Juturna, in Roman Mythology, is the goddess of springs, wells, and \nespecially *fountains* -- ergo, she's a symbol of rebirth as well as the \nWhite Fountain that will renew the old sun. (Note as well the common linkage \nwith Roman mythology -- B, F, & O all being named after minor Roman \ndeities.)\n\n3) Either the undines experience time in \"widdershins\" fashion or they know \nhow to access the Corridors of Time (depending on your preference) -- yet \nanother link that posits a connection more between the Hierodules than the \nMegatherians. (Indeed, I see no evidence that the Megatherians -- being \ncreatures of Briah and not Yesod -- can negotiate or undercut time in the \nsame fashion. But if the undines know how, why wouldn't their alleged \nmasters?)\n\n4) Juturna consistently helps -- rather than hinders -- Sev in every \nencounter. (The attempted seduction scene at Cephissus appears designed to \ngive our hero the ability to breathe underwater, which he'll need in the \nfuture.) Idas, on the hand, may have been turned by her father (if, that is, \nhe's Baldanders -- we're still awaiting the paternity results ).\n\n5) The notion of sea-deep monsters needing brides, consorts, or sexual \nplaythings implies one of the seven deadly sins -- lust --and opportunizes \ntheir vulnerability to the placement of covert operatives by the opposition \n--a catching of the Catodon, if you will.\n\nem-as-in-merfrow (go Ariel!)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-28T20:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c66af0$7c30b520$613ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know about winning, but I'm not so sure he lost, either.\nPostdiluvian Juturna, at least, seemed to be getting along just fine. And,\nas I think Andrew pointed out, in the end Severian-the-Conciliator found\nhimself a petty god in a pantheon of petty gods modeled on the autarch's\ncourt. That seems to me quite a come-down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, one could also take the approach - which is part of my interpretation \nof the books, but on other grounds - that the undines are actually more \nprimordial than Abaia and the other Megatherians. The undines are always \ngoing to be there no matter what happens; Abaia & co., while of the same \ngeneral order of beings, are the more complex product of accumulated human \nhistory that is all washed away with the flood.\n\nBy this light the mistake would be in assuming that the undines necessarily \nserve the interests of Abaia in all things, just because they are generally \nsubordinate to him." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4452F844.9080801@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-04-29T05:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10604281124r1bf0e591q63da1ad951567219@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "pthwndxrclzp wrote:\nDon't know if anyone's mentioned this yet...but do Juturna & Co. \nnecessarily have to possess the power to see the future themselves? What \nI mean is, couldn't someone or something else (cacogens, Abaia, etc.) \nhave just *told* various Undines pieces of the future? Why do we need to \nassume the undines have that ability themselves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because the undines *demonstrate* it, via\n\n1) Juturna's non-linear personal experiences\n\n2) Juturna's pointing out the time-ward directions of travel to Severian\n\n3) Idas' presence on the time-travelling Ship." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c66b54$91c883e0$643ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-04-29T06:17:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<4452F844.9080801@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aquastor wrote:\nDon't know if anyone's mentioned this yet...but do Juturna & Co.\nnecessarily have to possess the power to see the future themselves? What\nI mean is, couldn't someone or something else (cacogens, Abaia, etc.)\nhave just *told* various Undines pieces of the future? Why do we need to\nassume the undines have that ability themselves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff answered your question, so, just because those flood waters had to have\nbeen muddy anyway, I should point out that Juturna is inconsistent. That is,\nthough her stint as lifeguard in Severian's past was in her future that day\nin the throne room, when he next met her *after* the flood, when she was\neating fish in the Citadel, he remarked, \"You lived\", referring to her\nhaving survived the throne room scene. She answered, \"You did not.\" (URTH,\n341) She meant, of course, that he had managed to get himself killed (yet\nagain!) on that day, whether it was by the knife blade, the poison on it, or\ndrowning.\n\nMy point here is that that day in the throne room was in the past for both\nof them.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370604282346w6603e365j2fc6548bda7ea4fa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-29T06:46:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10604281124r1bf0e591q63da1ad951567219@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 4/28/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote:\n\n.... oh, heck, this has nothing to do with what you\nwrote.\n\nI just have to ask, pthwndrxrclzp: are you any relation\nto Mr Mxyzptlk?\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10604290033y3d475883ne29ae75f7f1dec79@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-04-29T07:33:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More on Juturna", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370604282346w6603e365j2fc6548bda7ea4fa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha! Well, first of all, my apologies for not having read the books in too\nlong a time, and my thanks to Jeff for the clarification(s) on the undines'\ntemporal posture. As for your question, Dan'l, while I have the fondest of\nmemories of the imp's mischief going as far back as comics read to me in the\nearly 1960s, Alan Moore put paid to any deep affection for the character\nback in 1996. The reference is actually to Finnegans\nWake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/28/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nOn 4/28/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote:\n\n.... oh, heck, this has nothing to do with what you\nwrote.\n\nI just have to ask, pthwndrxrclzp: are you any relation\nto Mr Mxyzptlk?\n\n--Dan'l\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }