Eyes of Thecla

b sharp02 May 2006, 01:33

Wolfe seems to use physical descriptions of his characters in somewhat mysterious ways. I have a few issues I'd like to discuss regarding this. First, in BotNS, Thecla is first described as having "great violet eyes, lids shaded with blue". Her large, violet eyes are noted numerous times later in the text (though they are once called "deep blue" when comparing them to Master Ash's eyes; perhaps this is more evidence of Severian's unreliablity?) In Sword, in a mushroom induced dream, it is implied that Thecla's (and other exultant women's)eyes have been made to grow bigger by "the application of minute amounts of certain poisons in childhood". Now there is another quasi-character who is described as having eyes with great pupils as dark as wells, irises purple as summer flowers. It is Hethor's paracoita. I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow. But what connection can there be between these two? I have some vague thoughts involving the kaibit process but I'm interested in any ideas others might have.

Adam Thornton02 May 2006, 01:41

↳ in reply to b sharp

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On May 1, 2006, at 8:33 PM, b sharp wrote: But what connection can there be between these two?

I have no idea. I just want to sing, "The Eyes of Thecla are Upon You." Adam

Jeff Wilson02 May 2006, 02:33

↳ in reply to b sharp

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b sharp wrote: In Sword, in a mushroom induced dream, it is implied that Thecla's (and other exultant women's)eyes have been made to grow bigger by "the application of minute amounts of certain poisons in childhood". Now there is another quasi-character who is described as having eyes with great pupils as dark as wells, irises purple as summer flowers. It is Hethor's paracoita. I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow. But what connection can there be between these two? I have some vague thoughts involving the kaibit process but I'm interested in any ideas others might have.

As Mantiss has it, each exultant child has a clone (the khaibit, egpytian word for shadow) from which certain items are harvested, notably growth factors. Given the Exultants' natural height, this results in a towering Exultant and a Khaibit of roughly normal height. Givne this precedent, doubltess any number of other cosmetic adjustments could be made to the Exultants, and the khaibits possibly serve as sources of spare vital organs as well.

Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

mournings glory02 May 2006, 02:56

↳ in reply to b sharp

From: "b sharp"

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Wolfe seems to use physical descriptions of his characters in somewhat mysterious ways... in BotNS, Thecla is first described as having "great violet eyes, lids shaded with blue". Her large, violet eyes are noted numerous times later in the text.

Much of the early violet imagery in Shadow is associated with flowers in the necropolis. I.e., "The necropolis has never seemed a city of death to me; I know its purple roses (which other people think so hideous) shelter hundreds of small animals and birds." "Spring came, and with it the purple-striped and white-dotted lilies of the necropolis." "The lilies faded as lilies do, and the dark death roses came into bloom. I cut them and carried them to Thecla, nigrescent purple flecked with scarlet." Hence the chief use of violet/purple may be to foreshadow Thecla's imminent death.

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In Sword, in a mushroom induced dream, it is implied that Thecla's (and other exultant women's)eyes have been made to grow bigger by "the application of minute amounts of certain poisons in childhood".

Belladonna will do this and was often used by Venetian courtesans to enhance their desirability. Interestingly the first six letters in scopolagna -- which is how at one time Hethor refers to his lost love -- can also refer to a class of compounds extracted from belladona.

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Now there is another quasi-character who is described as having eyes with great pupils as dark as wells, irises purple as summer flowers. It is Hethor's paracoita.

Isn't it implicit in URTH that Gunnie is actually Hethor's imaginary girlfriend? Her eyes are described "as large, as dark and as soft as any cow's," which doesn't necessarily rule out a darker shade of violet. Ditto for her real name -- Burgundafora -- I've always associated burgundy with a sort of wine-dark red shading into purple.

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I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow. But what connection can there be between these two? I have some vague thoughts involving the kaibit process but I'm interested in any ideas others might have.

Then again maybe you're onto something. So let's have it, mr "c" note. mourning's glory (whose namesake, of course, also comes in violet and purple-blue)

Roy C. Lackey02 May 2006, 05:47

↳ follows, by subject match mournings glory

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mourning's glory wrote: Isn't it implicit in URTH that Gunnie is actually Hethor's imaginary girlfriend? Her eyes are described "as large, as dark and as soft as any cow's," which doesn't necessarily rule out a darker shade of violet. Ditto for her real name -- Burgundafora -- I've always associated burgundy with a sort of wine-dark red shading into purple.

That's very interesting. I've never heard that before, and it never occurred to me. Or are you equating Hethor with Purn? Care to elaborate? -Roy

David Duffy02 May 2006, 06:46

↳ in reply to Roy C. Lackey

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On Tue, 2 May 2006, Roy C. Lackey wrote: to me. Or are you equating Hethor with Purn? Care to elaborate? -Roy

For one terrible moment, I thought you said Pern. David Duffy.

don doggett02 May 2006, 07:22

↳ in reply to b sharp

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--- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote: I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow.

I don't have my books with me, but Noctua, who is the naviscaput's daughter, has violet eyes, as does Valeria. There are more that I can't recall, but I think you are right that they're related in some way. Don

don doggett02 May 2006, 07:24

↳ in reply to don doggett

Ah, yes, Katharine, Severian's mother, also has violet eyes. Don

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--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote: --- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:

I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow.

I don't have my books with me, but Noctua, who is the naviscaput's daughter, has violet eyes, as does Valeria. There are more that I can't recall, but I think you are right that they're related in some way. Don __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________

mournings glory02 May 2006, 17:52

↳ in reply to don doggett

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I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes

I don't have my books with me, but Noctua, who is the naviscaput's daughter, has violet eyes, as does Valeria. There are more that I can't recall, but I think you are right that they're related in some way.

Ah, yes, Katharine, Severian's mother, also has violet eyes.

Mr. Doggett: Either you're misremembering, have a variant text, or I'm looking in all the wrong places. Noctua is "luminous of eye" "and the light that is in them is not of Urth" -- "she, whose eyes held starlight." Katharine, meanwhile, is "dark of complexion, dark of eye" -- like her son, who has brown eyes. (Genetically, there is no way a violet-eyed mother and a blue-eyed Ouen could have a child with brown eyes.) As for Valeria, "She had dark, curling hair, like Thecla's, but her eyes were dark too. Thecla's were violet." Here Severian deliberately contrasts the two women's eye color. (Perhaps, in Valeria's paraphrase of "I am all the daughters of my father's house, And all the brothers too," you are confusing her with Twelfth Night's Viola -- whose name indeed suggests violet.) Two others, however, come a little closer to violet, if not all the way there. Apheta's eyes are "large and luminous and of the deep, deep blue of her sea, unfaded by age." While the little girl Sev encounters in the antechamber of the House Absolute has "sparkling midnight eyes." So it seems b sharp's original assertion is still correct. em

don doggett02 May 2006, 18:30

↳ in reply to mournings glory

Well, as I said, I don't have my books, so it's quite possible I'm misremembering. Thanks for the correction. Don

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--- mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote: I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes

I don't have my books with me, but Noctua, who is the naviscaput's daughter, has violet eyes, as does Valeria. There are more that I can't recall, but I think you are right that they're related in some way.

Ah, yes, Katharine, Severian's mother, also has violet eyes.

Mr. Doggett: Either you're misremembering, have a variant text, or I'm looking in all the wrong places. Noctua is "luminous of eye" "and the light that is in them is not of Urth" -- "she, whose eyes held starlight." Katharine, meanwhile, is "dark of complexion, dark of eye" -- like her son, who has brown eyes. (Genetically, there is no way a violet-eyed mother and a blue-eyed Ouen could have a child with brown eyes.) As for Valeria, "She had dark, curling hair, like Thecla's, but her eyes were dark too. Thecla's were violet." Here Severian deliberately contrasts the two women's eye color. (Perhaps, in Valeria's paraphrase of "I am all the daughters of my father's house, And all the brothers too," you are confusing her with Twelfth Night's Viola -- whose name indeed suggests violet.) Two others, however, come a little closer to violet, if not all the way there. Apheta's eyes are "large and luminous and of the deep, deep blue of her sea, unfaded by age." While the little girl Sev encounters in the antechamber of the House Absolute has "sparkling midnight eyes." So it seems b sharp's original assertion is still correct. em _______________________________________________

Andy Robertson02 May 2006, 19:43

↳ in reply to b sharp

b sharp writes:

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I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow. But what connection can there be between these two? I have some vague thoughts involving the kaibit process but I'm interested in any ideas others might have.

"Violet eyes" is just a poetic way of saying dark blue eyes. Blue eyes are not found among animals, only among humans. But "blue-eyed" also has poetic connotations of outdoorsy, healthy, sunburned, blonde, natural, happy, which Wolfe does not want to bring up in connection with the paramours of the Autarch, who should be surpassingly beautiful but sick, like the dying Urth. This isn't complex, but in this case I **think** it's the whole story. Wolfe has a wonderful way of implying much in a few words, and if you pick those words apart you won't always find a conscious construction under them.

JWillard02 May 2006, 20:03

↳ in reply to Andy Robertson

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Andy Robertson wrote: b sharp writes:

I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow. But what connection can there be between these two? I have some vague thoughts involving the kaibit process but I'm interested in any ideas others might have.

"Violet eyes" is just a poetic way of saying dark blue eyes. Blue eyes are not found among animals, only among humans. But "blue-eyed" also has poetic connotations of outdoorsy, healthy, sunburned, blonde, natural, happy, which Wolfe does not want to bring up in connection with the paramours of the Autarch, who should be surpassingly beautiful but sick, like the dying Urth. This isn't complex, but in this case I **think** it's the whole story. Wolfe has a wonderful way of implying much in a few words, and if you pick those words apart you won't always find a conscious construction under them. _______________________________________________

Adrian Robert02 May 2006, 20:06

↳ in reply to Andy Robertson

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On May 2, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Andy Robertson wrote: b sharp writes:

I don't know of any other characters who are described as having very large violet or purple eyes, so it is difficult to call the similarity a coincidence, especially since both descriptions first appear in Shadow. But what connection can there be between these two? I have some vague thoughts involving the kaibit process but I'm interested in any ideas others might have.

"Violet eyes" is just a poetic way of saying dark blue eyes. Blue eyes are not found among animals, only among humans.

Excepting Siamese cats, at least..

Roy C. Lackey02 May 2006, 20:16

↳ follows, by subject match Adrian Robert

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mourning's glory wrote: Katharine, meanwhile, is "dark of complexion, dark of eye" -- like her son, who has brown eyes. (Genetically, there is no way a violet-eyed mother and a blue-eyed Ouen could have a child with brown eyes.)

I'm thinking of a different dog fight in the Sun Cycle, but I'm so glad someone who isn't me pointed this out. <g> -Roy

mournings glory02 May 2006, 20:33

↳ in reply to Adrian Robert

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Blue eyes are not found among animals, only among humans.

Excepting Siamese cats, at least..

...and Persian cats, plus Samoyed and Siberian Husky dogs, blue-eyed lemurs, blue-eyed shags (an antarctic bird), and Siegfried and Roy's famous white tigers, one of whom, Manticore, tried to eat Herr Horn for a snack. em-of-the-cornflower-blues

mournings glory03 May 2006, 03:34

↳ in reply to Roy C. Lackey

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Isn't it implicit in URTH that Gunnie is actually Hethor's imaginary girlfriend? Her eyes are described "as large, as dark and as soft as any cow's," which doesn't necessarily rule out a darker shade of violet.

Ditto for her real name -- Burgundafora -- I've always associated burgundy with a sort of wine-dark red shading into purple.

That's very interesting. I've never heard that before, and it never occurred to me. Or are you equating Hethor with Purn? Care to elaborate?

I believe it was Mr. Andre-Driussi who argued earlier that Hethor and Purn might be younger and older versions of the same individual. (I've given up ever trying to find anything in the archives.) 1) Purn wonders if Lune is "big and white" -- which may mean he crewed aboard the Quasar before the moon was forested, possibly making him a contemporary of Jonas. 2) Purn is present when Severian compares the beast-summoning sails of the Quasar to mirrors and notes the parallel with Hethor, perhaps planting the suggestion in Purn. 3) Purn utters at least one Wellerism ("That's what makes the ship go, as the skipper said when they asked about the wench") --something Hethor does with even more frequency. 4) When asked why he's attempted to kill him, Purn, in talking about his would-be relationship with Gunnie, tells Severian that "I'd been hoping she'd kiss me." If Burgundafora's eyes are indeed violet or dark blue, this might link her to Hethor's paracoita. 5) The name 'Purn' itself is a bit of a mystery -- it's neither saintly nor mythic, but I suspect it may be either anglicized Korean or Chinese (I've queried a number of people and forums, but have yet to receive confirmation or rejection) --which may link him to the pan-Asian spacefarers of the First Empire. 6) A much younger, saner version of Hethor might be more difficult for Severian to recognize, who's not particularly adept at these sorts of things anyway. Em Ess Gee

maru dubshinki03 May 2006, 05:25

↳ in reply to JWillard

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On 5/2/06, JWillard <aldenweer at charter.net> wrote: Andy Robertson wrote: Pg. 5 of Peace has this line: "Violet-eyed and black-haired, my aunt Olivia..." This is one of those lines I've been hung up on for a while, cursing my lack of eternity to make notes on such things as hair and eye color in the Lupiverse. Which brings me to a more serious question I've been entertaining for a while as well. Does someone out there know how to set up a wiki? Is there any reason we couldn't have a wiki-Wolfe, to start referencing answers to questions like this? (If there's a Battlestar wiki, why not a wiki-Wolfe?) Is this a terrible idea? Is it a copyright problem? I'm only semi-literate when it comes to computer things, so please, someone, make the case for or against.

cue the lurking Wikipedia administrator Certainly you could set up a wiki. Since all of Wolfe's work is unfreely licensed (so far as I know), editor would need to be a little careful to keep quotes within fair-use bounds, but that hasn't been a problem for this ML or for wikis on fictional universes- Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) and Memory Alpha (http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/index.php/Main_Page) have been going swimingly. I understand that setting up a wiki on Wikia (formerly Wikicities; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikia) is fairly easy and free; if you don't like the GFDL, other licenses can be chosen. My personal preference would be simply going with public domain (hasn't hurt InfoAnarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoAnarchy)), but I imagine other can differ. In short, it is perfectly possible, and probably a good idea. Just mining the archives alone could create a respectable size wiki, and I know I would greatly prefer a wiki for discussions (it would make things much easier to have arguments and trivia consolidated, and linking to them would improve arguments. How often have we seen things discussed to death rise up again just because no one really remembers them?) ~maru

maru dubshinki03 May 2006, 05:40

↳ in reply to maru dubshinki

Some more links: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia_creation_policy Looking at the reject wikia is instructive: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Rejected_wiki_requests And of course, casually scanning through the list of wikia, I see wikia for the Well of Souls, Star Wars, Star Trek, Age of Empires, Xenosaga, Wheel of Time etc.: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Template:List_of_Wikia ~maru suggested reading

Roy C. Lackey03 May 2006, 08:51

↳ follows, by subject match maru dubshinki

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mourning's glory wrote: 1) Purn wonders if Lune is "big and white" -- which may mean he crewed aboard the Quasar before the moon was forested, possibly making him a contemporary of Jonas.

3) Purn utters at least one Wellerism ("That's what makes the ship go, as the skipper said when they asked about the wench") --something Hethor does with even more frequency.

Did you mean Jonas? I don't recall Hethor ever using a Wellerism. Miles, of course, did. So did Gunnie. (18) As did the old moonraker captain near the end of CITADEL, so that type of speech was still used in Severian's day, and I see no reason to believe that Maxellindis' uncle had ever served aboard the Ship or been a contemporary of Jonas. Purn (and Idas) had boarded the same ship on Urth that took Severian to the Ship. (84, 107) Purn was lying about not knowing about green Lune. Of course, with time travel all sorts of improbable things can happen, but the last time Severian saw Hethor he was a little gray-haired man of more than middle years. Purn was one of those big, blond, sunny-disposition guys that Severian associated with men from the south of the Commonwealth, much like Hallvard. -Roy

Ranjit Bhatnagar03 May 2006, 14:43

↳ in reply to maru dubshinki

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Maru wrote: I understand that setting up a wiki on Wikia (formerly Wikicities; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikia) is fairly easy and free; if you don't like the GFDL, other licenses can be chosen. My personal preference would be simply going with public domain (hasn't hurt InfoAnarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoAnarchy)), but I imagine other can differ.

I can also set one up quite easily on urth.net - my hosting company gives me a big red button that says "WIKI" on it, which I need simply push. I'd be glad to do that if people are interested. However, I won't have time to administer it at all - setting up the initial structure, editing, monitoring for spam and vandalism - so I'd have to ask that others commit to take care of the thing! What do you think? - ranit

maru dubshinki03 May 2006, 15:03

↳ in reply to Ranjit Bhatnagar

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On 5/3/06, Ranjit Bhatnagar <ranjit at moonmilk.com> wrote: I can also set one up quite easily on urth.net - my hosting company gives me a big red button that says "WIKI" on it, which I need simply push. I'd be glad to do that if people are interested. However, I won't have time to administer it at all - setting up the initial structure, editing, monitoring for spam and vandalism - so I'd have to ask that others commit to take care of the thing! What do you think? - ranit

I'd be glad to handle that, but I couldn't right now- after May I'll have enough spare time I could run that. Of course, if no one else is interested, there's no point. Good wikis are always community-based efforts. Incidentally, what engine do they provide? Mediawiki, oddmuse, or some engine I've never heard of? ~maru

JWillard03 May 2006, 18:03

↳ in reply to maru dubshinki

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maru dubshinki wrote: On 5/3/06, Ranjit Bhatnagar <ranjit at moonmilk.com> wrote:

I can also set one up quite easily on urth.net - my hosting company gives me a big red button that says "WIKI" on it, which I need simply push. I'd be glad to do that if people are interested. However, I won't have time to administer it at all - setting up the initial structure, editing, monitoring for spam and vandalism - so I'd have to ask that others commit to take care of the thing! What do you think? - ranit

I'd be glad to handle that, but I couldn't right now- after May I'll have enough spare time I could run that. Of course, if no one else is interested, there's no point. Good wikis are always community-based efforts. Incidentally, what engine do they provide? Mediawiki, oddmuse, or some engine I've never heard of? ~maru _______________________________________________

maru dubshinki03 May 2006, 20:33

↳ in reply to JWillard

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In 5/3/06, JWillard <aldenweer at charter.net> wrote: Well, I very much want to see this happen. I imagine others will take an interest if we get it up and running. We could have sections for everything - characters, critters, genetic traits, theories, whatever. Thanks for the links! Jason

OK, so that makes me, Jason Willard, Kieran Mullen, and Ranjit Bhatnagar who've expressed interest. Anyone else? ~maru

Allan Anderson03 May 2006, 20:34

↳ in reply to maru dubshinki

I will happily futz with entries.

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maru dubshinki wrote: In 5/3/06, JWillard <aldenweer at charter.net> wrote:

Well, I very much want to see this happen. I imagine others will take an interest if we get it up and running. We could have sections for everything - characters, critters, genetic traits, theories, whatever. Thanks for the links! Jason

OK, so that makes me, Jason Willard, Kieran Mullen, and Ranjit Bhatnagar who've expressed interest. Anyone else? ~maru _______________________________________________

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes03 May 2006, 21:10

↳ in reply to Matthew King

Definite interest, though I question my ability to commit time to it.

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On 5/3/06, Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com> wrote: On May 3, 2006, at 1:33 PM, maru dubshinki wrote:

OK, so that makes me, Jason Willard, Kieran Mullen, and Ranjit Bhatnagar who've expressed interest. Anyone else?

I will gladly use a wiki to take notes as I re-read everything. _______________________________________________

Matthew King03 May 2006, 22:57

↳ in reply to maru dubshinki

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On May 3, 2006, at 1:33 PM, maru dubshinki wrote: OK, so that makes me, Jason Willard, Kieran Mullen, and Ranjit Bhatnagar who've expressed interest. Anyone else?

I will gladly use a wiki to take notes as I re-read everything.

Rex Racer04 May 2006, 00:01

↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Though new to contributing to the list, I would be happy to help where I can.

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On 5/3/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote: Definite interest, though I question my ability to commit time to it. On 5/3/06, Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com> wrote:

On May 3, 2006, at 1:33 PM, maru dubshinki wrote:

OK, so that makes me, Jason Willard, Kieran Mullen, and Ranjit Bhatnagar who've expressed interest. Anyone else?

I will gladly use a wiki to take notes as I re-read everything. _______________________________________________

Jordan Dennis04 May 2006, 00:55

↳ follows, by subject match Rex Racer

I think it would be a most helpful tool. I've written several college papers Wolfe's workk, and a wiki would have been a most helpful resource for me at the time. Of course, I would spend way too much time reading it and not enough time writing the papers, but that wouldn't hurt my feelings too much.

Jordan D. Dennis "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Under the First Amendment, there is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious as an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. (US 1974:339)

Iorwerth Thomas04 May 2006, 09:57

↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Ditto.

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From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com> Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) wikiWolfe Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:10:14 -0700 Definite interest, though I question my ability to commit time to it. On 5/3/06, Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com> wrote:

On May 3, 2006, at 1:33 PM, maru dubshinki wrote:

OK, so that makes me, Jason Willard, Kieran Mullen, and Ranjit Bhatnagar who've expressed interest. Anyone else?

I will gladly use a wiki to take notes as I re-read everything. _______________________________________________

b sharp05 May 2006, 13:57

↳ follows, by subject match maru dubshinki

Okay, my last thoughts on this. So it looks like the only two characters with explicitly described violet/purple eyes are Thecla and the paracoita. Hethor blames his "shipmates" and "not shipmates" (or was it "crewmates"?) for stealing her. Perhaps "not shipmate" means passenger? There is one character who was both a passenger on the Quasar ship and is associated with Thecla, which is the old Autarch, Appian. In Solar Labyrinth(and perhaps briefly in the Archives) Robert Borsky makes an elaborate argument that Appian is Thecla's father. Most of the evidence he uses stems from clues that Appian was involved in her upbringing. There seems very little to suggest he has a genetic connection to her. I can imagine Appian on his return to Urth, recently unmanned, forever to be childless, deciding to steal the living paracoita (Thecla's mother?) from the disgusting ship's cook, and taking her back with to Urth with him. Young women seem to be of interest to him, considering his later profession as pimp madame/daddy for the House Azure and his excessive interest in discussing Dorcas with Severian. Thecla's memories of her mother suggest something strange, like cloning was going on. And what would Hethor then do when the theft was discovered? Perhaps use the dying pets he fed to help stage a mutiny, become captain, try flying the ship to Urth to retrieve his paracoita. Well, just some thoughts Bsharp

Matthew King05 May 2006, 16:17

↳ in reply to b sharp

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On May 5, 2006, at 6:57 AM, b sharp wrote: Okay, my last thoughts on this. So it looks like the only two characters with explicitly described violet/purple eyes are Thecla and the paracoita. Hethor blames his "shipmates" and "not shipmates" (or was it "crewmates"?) for stealing her. Perhaps "not shipmate" means passenger? There is one character who was both a passenger on the Quasar ship and is associated with Thecla, which is the old Autarch, Appian.

"What kind of men could do as they have done - thieves, false friends, betrayers, bad shipmates, no shipmates, murderers and kidnappers." This appears to be a string of epithets, not an enumeration of those involved. I read "no shipmates" as a reply and extension to "bad shipmates". I.e. "Bad shipmates? They are not my mates at all!"

mournings glory06 May 2006, 01:17

↳ in reply to b sharp

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From: "b sharp" <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>

In Solar Labyrinth(and perhaps briefly in the Archives) Robert Borsky makes an elaborate argument that Appian is Thecla's father. Most of the evidence he uses stems from clues that Appian was involved in her upbringing. There seems very little to suggest he has a genetic connection to her.

I came across what is either an interesting clue in this regard, a typo, or sloppy copy-editing, depending on your druthers. In Chapter VI of Shadow Severian is reading a note from Master Gurloes: "'By the will of a court we have in our keeping the exulted person of the Chatelaine Thecla; and by its further will we would furnish to the Chatelaine Thecla in her confinement such comforts as lie not beyond reason and prudence. That she may while away the moments until her time with us is come - or rather, as she has instructed me to say, until the heart of the Autarch, whose forebearance knows not walls nor seas, is softened toward her, as she prays she asks that you, consonant with your office, provide her with certain books...'" Now what is the oddest word in all of the above paragraph? It's "forebearance" with an -e, which relates to ancestral forebearers, not to "the action or habit of forbearing." In the other four books of the Urth cycle, Wolfe also always uses the e- version of 'forebears' to mean ancestors and the non-e version 'forbear' to mean, "to bear with, have patience with, put up with, tolerate." So is this indeed a secret clue as to Thecla's paternity? Or simply a typo/copyediting mistake? (Speaking of which, has the Garsec/Garvaon mistake been corrected in the trade paperback edition of Wizard Knight? Sad to say, but the very nice SFBC edition of Book of the Short Sun, despite being printed on much higher quality paper, perpetuates all the typos of the original edition, which is surely the most error-ridden of any Wolfe book, primary or secondary.) Also, if not a typo, however would such wordplay survive translation into another language? Me sSe eg

Rex Racer06 May 2006, 02:32

↳ in reply to mournings glory

Actually, forebearance with an e is an acceptable variant of forbearance, so it is not even a typo or editorial error. I actually would use it a lot in a former life writing letters that required such serious precise verbiage Just as "grey" seems darker to me than "gray," forebearance just seems more "serious"

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On 5/5/06, mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: "b sharp" <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>

In Solar Labyrinth(and perhaps briefly in the Archives) Robert Borsky makes an elaborate argument that Appian is Thecla's father. Most of the evidence he uses stems from clues that Appian was involved in her upbringing.

There seems very little to suggest he has a genetic connection to her. I came across what is either an interesting clue in this regard, a typo, or sloppy copy-editing, depending on your druthers. In Chapter VI of Shadow Severian is reading a note from Master Gurloes: "'By the will of a court we have in our keeping the exulted person of the Chatelaine Thecla; and by its further will we would furnish to the Chatelaine Thecla in her confinement such comforts as lie not beyond reason and prudence. That she may while away the moments until her time with us is come - or rather, as she has instructed me to say, until the heart of the Autarch, whose forebearance knows not walls nor seas, is softened toward her, as she prays she asks that you, consonant with your office, provide her with certain books...'" Now what is the oddest word in all of the above paragraph? It's "forebearance" with an -e, which relates to ancestral forebearers, not to "the action or habit of forbearing." In the other four books of the Urth cycle, Wolfe also always uses the e- version of 'forebears' to mean ancestors and the non-e version 'forbear' to mean, "to bear with, have patience with, put up with, tolerate." So is this indeed a secret clue as to Thecla's paternity? Or simply a typo/copyediting mistake? (Speaking of which, has the Garsec/Garvaon mistake been corrected in the trade paperback edition of Wizard Knight? Sad to say, but the very nice SFBC edition of Book of the Short Sun, despite being printed on much higher quality paper, perpetuates all the typos of the original edition, which is surely the most error-ridden of any Wolfe book, primary or secondary.) Also, if not a typo, however would such wordplay survive translation into another language? Me sSe eg _______________________________________________

mournings glory06 May 2006, 03:39

↳ in reply to Rex Racer

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From: "Rex Racer" <rex.racerx at gmail.com> Actually, forebearance with an e is an acceptable variant of forbearance, so it is not even a typo or editorial error. I actually would use it a lot in a former life writing letters that required such serious precise verbiage

But you will allow that forebearance can also mean pertaining to one's forebears, right? And while you may be correct about the usage of forebearance for forbearance in the personal correspondence of yesteryear, you will not find the variant spelling listed anywhere at all in Wolfe's beloved dictionary of choice, the O.E.D. -- which seems curious to me since it generally lists all known variants, even when obsolete or rare. Forbearance, on the other hand, appears 27 times and as early as 1593, in Shakespeare's Henry VI. Might you therefor (a pertinent OED variant, no?) have an alternate reputable source for your claim? M

Rex Racer06 May 2006, 13:02

↳ in reply to mournings glory

I have common usage, and a couple of dictionaries at hand here that have forebearance listed as a variant of forbearance and make no reference to it having to do with parentage. I have seen it with an e and without, and have used it with an e or with out. I think too much is being read into the use of a variant spelling. It isn't something from the the personal correspondence of yesteryear, either, as I am not yet 40 and used it in a business context. :-)

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On 5/5/06, mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: "Rex Racer" <rex.racerx at gmail.com> Actually, forebearance with an e is an acceptable variant of forbearance, so it is not even a typo or editorial error. I actually would use it a lot in a former life writing letters that required such serious precise verbiage

But you will allow that forebearance can also mean pertaining to one's forebears, right? And while you may be correct about the usage of forebearance for forbearance in the personal correspondence of yesteryear, you will not find the variant spelling listed anywhere at all in Wolfe's beloved dictionary of choice, the O.E.D. -- which seems curious to me since it generally lists all known variants, even when obsolete or rare. Forbearance, on the other hand, appears 27 times and as early as 1593, in Shakespeare's Henry VI. Might you therefor (a pertinent OED variant, no?) have an alternate reputable source for your claim? M _______________________________________________

Russell Wodell10 May 2006, 00:21

↳ follows, by subject match Iorwerth Thomas

I wonder if it might make sense to begin by building the wiki section on the Latro novels, since (a) they are relatively self-contained and (b) "Soldier of Sidon" is due this fall and many readers will be re-familiarizing themselves with the first two books. On a totally separate note: Has anyone else wondered why Wolfe has never referred to the two most famous vulpine authors: Thomas Wolfe and Virginia Woolf? Russell Wodell

maru dubshinki10 May 2006, 01:41

↳ in reply to Russell Wodell

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In 5/9/06, Russell Wodell <wrustle at telus.net> wrote: I wonder if it might make sense to begin by building the wiki section on the Latro novels, since (a) they are relatively self-contained and (b) "Soldier of Sidon" is due this fall and many readers will be re-familiarizing themselves with the first two books. On a totally separate note: Has anyone else wondered why Wolfe has never referred to the two most famous vulpine authors: Thomas Wolfe and Virginia Woolf? Russell Wodell

It would be a good idea, but as many people have discovered to their rue on many different wikis, it's hard to force volunteers to do a particular subset of the ToDo list. I know I don't have any of the Soldier series, so it would be fairly difficult for me, at least. ~maru