{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4579",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4579,
    "subject": "Truth in eidolons",
    "messages": 3,
    "voices": 3,
    "first": "2006-05-02T08:38:44+00:00",
    "last": "2006-05-03T01:33:40+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<001401c66dc3$d63cd8c0$5a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2006-05-02T08:38:44+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Truth in eidolons",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Before dissolving into nothingness, the aquastor Malrubius in CITADEL said\nhe and Triskele were \"beings created and sustained by the power of the\nimagination and the concentration of thought.\" He went on to say, \"The\nmachine [on the Hierodule ship, which had departed via the Corridors of\nTime] looked among your memories and found us. Our lives in your mind are\nnot so complete as those of Thecla and the old Autarch, but we are there\nnevertheless, and live while you live. But we are maintained in the physical\nworld by the energies of the machine, and its range is but a few thousand\nyears.\"\n\nB, F & O said much the same thing about eidolons while in Apu's tomb in\nURTH, explaining that mighty Tzadkiel had revived the Severian killed in the\nfall on the Ship by using \"remembrance taking [taken?] from your dead mind\nto build your mind and you anew.\" That's easy enough to grant mighty\nTzadkiel. And B, F & O had a machine on their craft to do the job of looking\ninto dead Apu's head to make the new eidolon of Severian they were talking\nto. That's okay, too.\n\nThey also explained that the eidolon of Severian created by Tzadkiel went on\nto eventually achieve independent physical substantiality by eating,\nbreathing and the like. Then they faded into the past. That's still okay, so\nlong as they didn't travel too far into the past for the machine on their\ncraft to sustain his new body. But Severian soon escaped from the tomb and\nwent far into the future, to the beach on Ushas. Why didn't he dissolve to\nnothingness, like Malrubius? We were led to believe that after the New Sun\narrived he lost most of his supernatural powers. What sustained his body on\nUshas long enough for it to achieve substantiality?\n\nAquastor Malrubius had imparted certain information to Severian, including\n\"The Key to the Universe\". If, as both Malrubius and the Hierodules claimed,\nan eidolon's mind is created from the mind of another, then where does the\neidolon's knowledge come from if not the mind of the person it was created\nfrom? How could the eidolon of Malrubius know *anything* not known to\nSeverian? Godel would not approve.\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<10605021442.AA02441@slack.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "David DiGiacomo",
        "address": "david at slack.com"
      },
      "date": "2006-05-02T14:42:17+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Truth in eidolons",
      "in_reply_to": "<001401c66dc3$d63cd8c0$5a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "They also explained that the eidolon of Severian created by Tzadkiel went on\nto eventually achieve independent physical substantiality by eating,\nbreathing and the like. Then they faded into the past. That's still okay, so\nlong as they didn't travel too far into the past for the machine on their\ncraft to sustain his new body. But Severian soon escaped from the tomb and\nwent far into the future, to the beach on Ushas. Why didn't he dissolve to\nnothingness, like Malrubius? We were led to believe that after the New Sun\narrived he lost most of his supernatural powers. What sustained his body on\nUshas long enough for it to achieve substantiality?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Severian was an unusual fellow, and his eidolon bulked up more quickly than\nmost.\n\nIt's also possible that B, F & O didn't know everything about eidolons (2\nof them being youngsters, and the other one a not very intelligent robot)."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Aquastor Malrubius had imparted certain information to Severian, including\n\"The Key to the Universe\". If, as both Malrubius and the Hierodules claimed,\nan eidolon's mind is created from the mind of another, then where does the\neidolon's knowledge come from if not the mind of the person it was created\nfrom? How could the eidolon of Malrubius know *anything* not known to\nSeverian? Godel would not approve."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Eidolons must be able to acquire and store additional information after\nthey are created, or they wouldn't be able to carry on a conversation, or\notherwise interact.  The eidolon of Malrubius must have learned \"The Key\nto the Universe\" at some point after being created, but before dissolving."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<44580874.2070401@io.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jeff Wilson",
        "address": "jwilson at io.com"
      },
      "date": "2006-05-03T01:33:40+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Truth in eidolons",
      "in_reply_to": "<001401c66dc3$d63cd8c0$5a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThey also explained that the eidolon of Severian created by Tzadkiel went on\nto eventually achieve independent physical substantiality by eating,\nbreathing and the like. Then they faded into the past. That's still okay, so\nlong as they didn't travel too far into the past for the machine on their\ncraft to sustain his new body. But Severian soon escaped from the tomb and\nwent far into the future, to the beach on Ushas. Why didn't he dissolve to\nnothingness, like Malrubius? We were led to believe that after the New Sun\narrived he lost most of his supernatural powers. What sustained his body on\nUshas long enough for it to achieve substantiality?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "It's arguable that the newly-breathing Apu Punchau left behind was the \neidolon, while \"Severian\" was actually the \"original\". Or, it could be \nthat when the light of the White Fountain restored his ability to \ntraverse the Corridors, it also restored his flesh."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Aquastor Malrubius had imparted certain information to Severian, including\n\"The Key to the Universe\". If, as both Malrubius and the Hierodules claimed,\nan eidolon's mind is created from the mind of another, then where does the\neidolon's knowledge come from if not the mind of the person it was created\nfrom? How could the eidolon of Malrubius know *anything* not known to\nSeverian? Godel would not approve."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "IIRC, eidolons were used by intelligent machines to communicate with and \nteach uneducated people. It's simple to see that an  eidolon-projector \ntakes appearances and behaviors from the minds of the audience, but the \nsubject matter comes from the operator."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}