Subject: (urth) Truth in eidolons

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 08:38:44 +0000

Before dissolving into nothingness, the aquastor Malrubius in CITADEL said
he and Triskele were "beings created and sustained by the power of the
imagination and the concentration of thought." He went on to say, "The
machine [on the Hierodule ship, which had departed via the Corridors of
Time] looked among your memories and found us. Our lives in your mind are
not so complete as those of Thecla and the old Autarch, but we are there
nevertheless, and live while you live. But we are maintained in the physical
world by the energies of the machine, and its range is but a few thousand
years."

B, F & O said much the same thing about eidolons while in Apu's tomb in
URTH, explaining that mighty Tzadkiel had revived the Severian killed in the
fall on the Ship by using "remembrance taking [taken?] from your dead mind
to build your mind and you anew." That's easy enough to grant mighty
Tzadkiel. And B, F & O had a machine on their craft to do the job of looking
into dead Apu's head to make the new eidolon of Severian they were talking
to. That's okay, too.

They also explained that the eidolon of Severian created by Tzadkiel went on
to eventually achieve independent physical substantiality by eating,
breathing and the like. Then they faded into the past. That's still okay, so
long as they didn't travel too far into the past for the machine on their
craft to sustain his new body. But Severian soon escaped from the tomb and
went far into the future, to the beach on Ushas. Why didn't he dissolve to
nothingness, like Malrubius? We were led to believe that after the New Sun
arrived he lost most of his supernatural powers. What sustained his body on
Ushas long enough for it to achieve substantiality?

Aquastor Malrubius had imparted certain information to Severian, including
"The Key to the Universe". If, as both Malrubius and the Hierodules claimed,
an eidolon's mind is created from the mind of another, then where does the
eidolon's knowledge come from if not the mind of the person it was created
from? How could the eidolon of Malrubius know *anything* not known to
Severian? Godel would not approve.

-Roy

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From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 14:42:17 +0000

>Ushas long enough for it to achieve substantiality?

Severian was an unusual fellow, and his eidolon bulked up more quickly than
most.

It's also possible that B, F & O didn't know everything about eidolons (2
of them being youngsters, and the other one a not very intelligent robot).

>Severian? Godel would not approve.

Eidolons must be able to acquire and store additional information after
they are created, or they wouldn't be able to carry on a conversation, or
otherwise interact.  The eidolon of Malrubius must have learned "The Key
to the Universe" at some point after being created, but before dissolving.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 01:33:40 +0000

> Ushas long enough for it to achieve substantiality?

It's arguable that the newly-breathing Apu Punchau left behind was the 
eidolon, while "Severian" was actually the "original". Or, it could be 
that when the light of the White Fountain restored his ability to 
traverse the Corridors, it also restored his flesh.

> Severian? Godel would not approve.

IIRC, eidolons were used by intelligent machines to communicate with and 
teach uneducated people. It's simple to see that an  eidolon-projector 
takes appearances and behaviors from the minds of the audience, but the 
subject matter comes from the operator.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >