{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4583", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4583, "subject": "Hethor", "messages": 16, "voices": 12, "first": "2006-05-05T13:41:10+00:00", "last": "2006-05-10T16:23:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T13:41:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of Purn as Hethor and \nGunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar Labyrinth. Perhaps Mantis \nis in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic is that Hethor is a shape \nshifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer creature called a \nperyton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him during his escape into \nthe mountains but eventually decides it is a constellation.\n\nHethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia, riding a winged creature \nwith claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone soldiers. So peryton \nbecomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both in Severian's earlier \ndream and during the snatching the winged creature is noted to have a mitre \nof bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era pterodon. But it also is \nsupposed to have the head of a hag which sends things into a mythological \nslant I won't pursue here.\n\nLike Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection satifying. It is all \nbased on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. There is no physical \nresemblance nor psychological resemblance to twisted, mysterious Hethor. To \nme Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth resident who would \ninstinctively fight to save Urth without much care or thought to deeper \nissues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark eyes, not violet, and is a \nvery big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good candidate for a poppet \ndoll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box all day waiting to spend \nthe night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish version of Thecla is...)\n\nHowever, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to me for a few reasons. \nEven Severian wonders how Hethor is able to transport his larger pets \naround. There are some interesting early (SotT) statements Hethor makes to \nidentify himself. Stammering, he says something like \"I the old captain, \nthe old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying pets.\" I take this to be \na true description, though I can't tell whether Hethor is describing a \nseries of promotions or demotions on the ship. But I think he was, at some \npoint, captain.\n\nIn UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain, an angelic, \nshapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's story). I think this lends \ncredence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a winged, shape shifting \ncreature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen angel?\n\nHethor also describes himself as serving on the Quasar, and on a ship with a \nhundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he served as the captain of \nthe \"limping ship\". In the time of BotNS's writing I think quasars were \ntheorized to be white fountains, the compliment to black holes. So I think \nthe Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be) Tzadkiel's ship because its \nprimary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was to carry the New Sun \nback to earth.\n\nSo what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain of? Some suggest it was \nthe ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the antechamber prisoners and \nthat Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could be the case, but then he \nwould be a normal human not a shapeshifter.\n\nThere is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to \nhave avoided attempts at explanation through all these years. This is The \nCitadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to \nits large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which \nis like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship is an alternate version \nof the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This ship was apparently poorly \ncaptained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his stolen paracoita?) and \ngot stuck.\n\nbsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060505150141.12938.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T15:01:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed\nto be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of\nTyphon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that\nthe citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's\nan interesting idea -- is there textual support for\nthat? Or am I misinterpreting?\n\nMacronaut" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\nI first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of\nPurn as Hethor and \nGunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar\nLabyrinth. Perhaps Mantis \nis in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic\nis that Hethor is a shape \nshifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer\ncreature called a \nperyton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him\nduring his escape into \nthe mountains but eventually decides it is a\nconstellation.\n\nHethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia,\nriding a winged creature \nwith claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone\nsoldiers. So peryton \nbecomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both\nin Severian's earlier \ndream and during the snatching the winged creature\nis noted to have a mitre \nof bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era\npterodon. But it also is \nsupposed to have the head of a hag which sends\nthings into a mythological \nslant I won't pursue here.\n\nLike Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection\nsatifying. It is all \nbased on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. \nThere is no physical \nresemblance nor psychological resemblance to\ntwisted, mysterious Hethor. To \nme Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth\nresident who would \ninstinctively fight to save Urth without much care\nor thought to deeper \nissues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark\neyes, not violet, and is a \nvery big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good\ncandidate for a poppet \ndoll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box\nall day waiting to spend \nthe night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish\nversion of Thecla is...)\n\nHowever, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to\nme for a few reasons. \nEven Severian wonders how Hethor is able to\ntransport his larger pets \naround. There are some interesting early (SotT)\nstatements Hethor makes to \nidentify himself. Stammering, he says something\nlike \"I the old captain, \nthe old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying\npets.\" I take this to be \na true description, though I can't tell whether\nHethor is describing a \nseries of promotions or demotions on the ship. But\nI think he was, at some \npoint, captain.\n\nIn UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain,\nan angelic, \nshapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's\nstory). I think this lends \ncredence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a\nwinged, shape shifting \ncreature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen\nangel?\n\nHethor also describes himself as serving on the\nQuasar, and on a ship with a \nhundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he\nserved as the captain of \nthe \"limping ship\". In the time of BotNS's writing\nI think quasars were \ntheorized to be white fountains, the compliment to\nblack holes. So I think \nthe Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be)\nTzadkiel's ship because its \nprimary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was\nto carry the New Sun \nback to earth.\n\nSo what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain\nof? Some suggest it was \nthe ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the\nantechamber prisoners and \nthat Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could\nbe the case, but then he \nwould be a normal human not a shapeshifter.\n\nThere is another ship which looms very large in\nBotNS but seems so far to \nhave avoided attempts at explanation through all\nthese years. This is The \nCitadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par\nwith the Quasar due to \nits large size and irregular shape (contrast to the\nHierodule's ship which \nis like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship\nis an alternate version \nof the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This\nship was apparently poorly \ncaptained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his\nstolen paracoita?) and \ngot stuck.\n\nbsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rex Racer", "address": "rex.racerx at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T15:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<20060505150141.12938.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number of\nthe towers being \"landers\" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and\ndescriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old\nspaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part coming\nfrom Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures and\nextensions slowly accreting through time.\n\nI can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to reference,\nbut I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a massive ship on\npar with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote:\n\nI remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed\nto be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of\nTyphon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that\nthe citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's\nan interesting idea -- is there textual support for\nthat? Or am I misinterpreting?\n\nMacronaut\n\n--- b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of\nPurn as Hethor and\nGunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar\nLabyrinth. Perhaps Mantis\nis in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic\nis that Hethor is a shape\nshifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer\ncreature called a\nperyton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him\nduring his escape into\nthe mountains but eventually decides it is a\nconstellation.\n\nHethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia,\nriding a winged creature\nwith claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone\nsoldiers. So peryton\nbecomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both\nin Severian's earlier\ndream and during the snatching the winged creature\nis noted to have a mitre\nof bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era\npterodon. But it also is\nsupposed to have the head of a hag which sends\nthings into a mythological\nslant I won't pursue here.\n\nLike Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection\nsatifying. It is all\nbased on the name Purn and that he is a sailor.\nThere is no physical\nresemblance nor psychological resemblance to\ntwisted, mysterious Hethor. To\nme Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth\nresident who would\ninstinctively fight to save Urth without much care\nor thought to deeper\nissues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark\neyes, not violet, and is a\nvery big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good\ncandidate for a poppet\ndoll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box\nall day waiting to spend\nthe night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish\nversion of Thecla is...)\n\nHowever, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to\nme for a few reasons.\nEven Severian wonders how Hethor is able to\ntransport his larger pets\naround. There are some interesting early (SotT)\nstatements Hethor makes to\nidentify himself. Stammering, he says something\nlike \"I the old captain,\nthe old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying\npets.\" I take this to be\na true description, though I can't tell whether\nHethor is describing a\nseries of promotions or demotions on the ship. But\nI think he was, at some\npoint, captain.\n\nIn UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain,\nan angelic,\nshapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's\nstory). I think this lends\ncredence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a\nwinged, shape shifting\ncreature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen\nangel?\n\nHethor also describes himself as serving on the\nQuasar, and on a ship with a\nhundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he\nserved as the captain of\nthe \"limping ship\". In the time of BotNS's writing\nI think quasars were\ntheorized to be white fountains, the compliment to\nblack holes. So I think\nthe Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be)\nTzadkiel's ship because its\nprimary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was\nto carry the New Sun\nback to earth.\n\nSo what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain\nof? Some suggest it was\nthe ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the\nantechamber prisoners and\nthat Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could\nbe the case, but then he\nwould be a normal human not a shapeshifter.\n\nThere is another ship which looms very large in\nBotNS but seems so far to\nhave avoided attempts at explanation through all\nthese years. This is The\nCitadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par\nwith the Quasar due to\nits large size and irregular shape (contrast to the\nHierodule's ship which\nis like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship\nis an alternate version\nof the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This\nship was apparently poorly\ncaptained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his\nstolen paracoita?) and\ngot stuck.\n\nbsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a0930df0605050831y6b79c918tddec8ee6353aced6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T15:31:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "agreed. the 'towers' were individual spaceships, from what I gathered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/06, Rex Racer wrote:\nI remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number of\nthe towers being \"landers\" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and\ndescriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old\nspaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part coming\nfrom Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures and\nextensions slowly accreting through time.\n\n I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to\nreference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a\nmassive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.\n\n\nOn 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed\nto be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of\nTyphon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that\nthe citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's\nan interesting idea -- is there textual support for\nthat? Or am I misinterpreting?\n\nMacronaut\n\n--- b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of\nPurn as Hethor and\nGunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar\nLabyrinth. Perhaps Mantis\nis in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic\nis that Hethor is a shape\nshifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer\ncreature called a\nperyton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him\nduring his escape into\nthe mountains but eventually decides it is a\nconstellation.\n\nHethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia,\nriding a winged creature\nwith claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone\nsoldiers. So peryton\nbecomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both\nin Severian's earlier\ndream and during the snatching the winged creature\nis noted to have a mitre\nof bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era\npterodon. But it also is\nsupposed to have the head of a hag which sends\nthings into a mythological\nslant I won't pursue here.\n\nLike Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection\nsatifying. It is all\nbased on the name Purn and that he is a sailor.\nThere is no physical\nresemblance nor psychological resemblance to\ntwisted, mysterious Hethor. To\nme Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth\nresident who would\ninstinctively fight to save Urth without much care\nor thought to deeper\nissues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark\neyes, not violet, and is a\nvery big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good\ncandidate for a poppet\ndoll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box\nall day waiting to spend\nthe night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish\nversion of Thecla is...)\n\nHowever, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to\nme for a few reasons.\nEven Severian wonders how Hethor is able to\ntransport his larger pets\naround. There are some interesting early (SotT)\nstatements Hethor makes to\nidentify himself. Stammering, he says something\nlike \"I the old captain,\nthe old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying\npets.\" I take this to be\na true description, though I can't tell whether\nHethor is describing a\nseries of promotions or demotions on the ship. But\nI think he was, at some\npoint, captain.\n\nIn UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain,\nan angelic,\nshapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's\nstory). I think this lends\ncredence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a\nwinged, shape shifting\ncreature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen\nangel?\n\nHethor also describes himself as serving on the\nQuasar, and on a ship with a\nhundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he\nserved as the captain of\nthe \"limping ship\". In the time of BotNS's writing\nI think quasars were\ntheorized to be white fountains, the compliment to\nblack holes. So I think\nthe Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be)\nTzadkiel's ship because its\nprimary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was\nto carry the New Sun\nback to earth.\n\nSo what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain\nof? Some suggest it was\nthe ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the\nantechamber prisoners and\nthat Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could\nbe the case, but then he\nwould be a normal human not a shapeshifter.\n\nThere is another ship which looms very large in\nBotNS but seems so far to\nhave avoided attempts at explanation through all\nthese years. This is The\nCitadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par\nwith the Quasar due to\nits large size and irregular shape (contrast to the\nHierodule's ship which\nis like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship\nis an alternate version\nof the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This\nship was apparently poorly\ncaptained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his\nstolen paracoita?) and\ngot stuck.\n\nbsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T15:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"b sharp\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hethor is presumed to be [shape-shifted] when Agia, riding a winged \ncreature\nwith claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone soldiers. So peryton\nbecomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both in Severian's earlier\ndream and during the snatching the winged creature is noted to have a mitre\nof bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era pterodon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pterodon does yield the letters to form the homologous snippet, p-e-r-n. But \nperhaps even more interesting the word \"purn\" itself means \"bone, skull\" in \nproto-Dravidian. I'd been looking for a Korean or Chinese linguistic \nconnection, and never mentioned the proto-Dravidian \"purn\" before because I \ncouldn't connect it with Hethor/Purn until you brought up the \"mitre of \nbone\" angle. My thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection satifying. It is all\nbased on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. There is no physical\nresemblance nor psychological resemblance to twisted, mysterious Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to me for a few reasons.\nEven Severian wonders how Hethor is able to transport his larger pets\naround." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not crazy about the evidence for shape-shifting (such creatures populate \nWolfe's universe like ants), but if it is so beguiling to you, you should \nhave little trouble accepting the fact that one could appear as either small \nand gray-haired (Hethor) or more solidly-built and blond-haired (Purn).\n\nIn regards to Mr. Lackey's earlier disastisfaction with the Purn=Hethor \ntheory, I find it sound and well-reasoned. However, the fact that Wolfe \nbrings up the beast-summoning mirrors in front of Purn and implies he is \nsomewhat jealous when Gunnie bestows a kiss upon Severian suggests he wants \nus to at least consider the parallels between him and Hethor. Perhaps the \nnameless, but mysterious, little gray-haired man also noted to be aboard the \nQuasar simply overhears Sev talking about the mirrors, as well as sees \nBurgundafora kissing him, and it's he who's actually Hethor.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some suggest... that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never quite understood the tenuous connection here -- mostly because I don't \nunderstand how, in the concatenation of names, one arrives at \"Hethor\" from \n\"KimLeeSoong.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to\nhave avoided attempts at explanation through all these years. This is The\nCitadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to\nits large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which\nis like a flying saucer)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its smaller \nbays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around Nessus \nmight not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to hold the \nearly stages of Typhon's Whorl?\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-05-05T15:37:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0605050831y6b79c918tddec8ee6353aced6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Duncan Truter writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "agreed. the 'towers' were individual spaceships, from what I gathered. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the visionary section at the end of the Long Sun books, the Matachin \nTower is described as \"the Malacic Transport\" or some such thing. I can't \nremember the exact word but the implication is clearly that the Citadel is a \nspaceport and the towers are individual ships." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10605050952k481b63a5o43107ad291128b9a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T16:52:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth.\nThough I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually\nstated in the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/06, mournings glory wrote:\n\nI believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its\nsmaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around\nNessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to\nhold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rex Racer", "address": "rex.racerx at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T17:01:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10605050952k481b63a5o43107ad291128b9a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I believe it was mentioned, or apparent from context.. I seem to\nremember Mamelta maybe telling Silk about the landers coming and going (Why\ndon't I just get a second copy of them all here for my office?!) . It is a\nhollowed out asteroid, so it would seem almost senseless to bring it down,\nfill it up and launch something like a small moon into orbit. The mind\nboggles alone on the energy required to get something of that size to\n7miles/sec (escape velocity)\n\nAnd the Wall around Nessus? Well- it is probably just a wall (though a feat\nof engineering that one could live their whole life in). Wolfe hides things\nin things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into\nthings that just are themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote:\n\nI always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth.\nThough I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually\nstated in the books.\n\n\nOn 5/5/06, mournings glory wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its\nsmaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around\nNessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to\nhold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a0930df0605051005i7e232f7dieb7621107ffc5807@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T17:05:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\nRex Racer wrote:\nin things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into\nthings that just are themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "well said, I've felt like saying that already today :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c67076$29ed30a0$c83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-05T19:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0605051005i7e232f7dieb7621107ffc5807@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rex Racer wrote:\nI can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to\nreference," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a massive ship on\npar with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.<<\n\nThat is correct. The Citadel was the old space port. See, URTH, chapter\nXXXV, p-251.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tristan Davenport", "address": "tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-05T19:27:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually I believe it was mentioned, or apparent from context.. I seem to\nremember Mamelta maybe telling Silk about the landers coming and going (Why\ndon't I just get a second copy of them all here for my office?!) ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Mamelta said so, but I seem to remember a flashback from Maytera \nMarble, too (instead?). She was herded onto the lander and has a clear \nmemory of admiring one of the chem soldiers who was standing guard. I think \nthat was in Lake or Calde otLS\n\n Tristan\n tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a\nhollowed out asteroid, so it would seem almost senseless to bring it down,\nfill it up and launch something like a small moon into orbit. The mind\nboggles alone on the energy required to get something of that size to\n7miles/sec (escape velocity)\n\nAnd the Wall around Nessus? Well- it is probably just a wall (though a feat\nof engineering that one could live their whole life in). Wolfe hides things\nin things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into\nthings that just are themselves.\n\nOn 5/5/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth.\nThough I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually\nstated in the books.\n\n\nOn 5/5/06, mournings glory wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its\nsmaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall \naround\nNessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built \nto\nhold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<445C2C36.8080309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-06T04:55:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rex Racer wrote:\nI remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number \nof the towers being \"landers\" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and \ndescriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old \nspaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part \ncoming from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures \nand extensions slowly accreting through time.\n\nI can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to \nreference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a \nmassive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Wall, with the peculiar positioning of the guardsmen inside it, \ncould be a huge, grounded spin-gravity generation ship, similar to the \nWhorl, but hollow on the inside and roofed over. During flight gravity \nwould be outward, along the radius, rather than along the axis, so some \nfurnishings and fixtures would be seen as pointing the wrong way, or \nswiveling crew compartments could likewise be worth remarking on.\n\nAny sizable ship landing under thrust would clear the ground for some \ndistance around, so its possible that you have a circular ship forming \nthe wall around Nessus, only it landed far outside of town, then the \ntown grew out to meet and enter it. Or it could merely be the wall of \nthe Citadel, created when smaller ships landed inside it to avoid \nblasting the countryside or to be convenient to the other ships and \nshared utilities." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maru dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-06T07:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<20060505150141.12938.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote:\nI remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed\nto be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of\nTyphon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that\nthe citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's\nan interesting idea -- is there textual support for\nthat? Or am I misinterpreting?\n\nMacronaut" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with the others. The only textual support I can possibly see\nwould be the intricate tunnel systems being actually corridors and\ntubing etc. But that's pretty thin.\n\n~maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-06T16:37:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed\nto be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of\nTyphon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that\nthe citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's\nan interesting idea -- is there textual support for\nthat? Or am I misinterpreting?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"maru dubshinki\" \n\nI agree with the others. The only textual support I can possibly see\nwould be the intricate tunnel systems being actually corridors and\ntubing etc. But that's pretty thin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Totally unsure if this is relevant or not, but at the end of _Shadow_, as \nSev and his friends approach the Nessus Wall, we are told \"It is of black \nmetal, like the walls of the Citadel, and for this reason it seemed less \nterrible to me than it would have otherwise--the buildings I had seen in the \ncity were of stone or brick, and to come now on the material I had known \nfrom earliest childhood was no unpleasant thing.\"\n\nNow in a resource-depleted world, walls of metal seem odd to me -- \nespecially one that seems to make the Great Wall of China look like a \nchild's miniature. Then again maybe/probably both walls were constructed at \na much earlier time by the same technology and design team? Dunno.\n\nIt also seems to me that when Severian enters Nessus in _Urth_, there is no \nWall in place. Plus Baldanders seems to imply he knows why the Wall was \nbuilt and it's his pele tower at Lake Diuturna upon which the saucer ship of \nthe Hierodules parks itself.\n\nehm" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-07T03:28:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to Macronaut and mourning's glory for those posts on Hethor. So it \nseems we have two contenders for Hethor on Tzadkiel's ship. Is one a red \nherring?\n\nOne is big blonde Purn (if only he was Pern...) who feeds the dying pets \n(though seems unlikely to be a cook). And the other is \"a little man with \ndirty gray hair like Hethor\" who might be a lieutenant...to a captain of the \njibers, who is subsequently killed...elevating Hethor to captain? Would \nWolfe be so devious as to disguise Hethor with a simile?\n\nAlso that little gray guy is in a very weird scene which I forgot about. \nSev is alone after scaring off Zak when a forcefield seems to catch and hold \nhim. He is captured (or maybe killed again?) by a group of jibers and forced \nto watch a movie clip showing a \"semblance\" of himself as autarch in his \ncourt. He is told to imitate the semblance or be killed.\n\nWhat is all this about and why is this \"semblance\" so important as to rate \nits own chapter?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<323868711.20060510182314@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-05-10T16:23:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello bsharp," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Friday, May 5, 2006, 3:41:10 PM, you wrote:\nThere is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to\nhave avoided attempts at explanation through all these years. This is The\nCitadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to\nits large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which\nis like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship is an alternate version\nof the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This ship was apparently poorly\ncaptained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his stolen paracoita?) and\ngot stuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Citadel is not a ship, but a starport. Some of the towers (Matachin\nTower, but not the witches' tower) are ships, or better - atomic\nrockets." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nPoznaj Stefana! Zmien komunikator! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1924" } ] } ] }