# Hethor *The Urth list — 16 messages, 12 voices, 05 May 2006* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### b sharp *05 May 2006, 13:41* I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of Purn as Hethor and Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar Labyrinth. Perhaps Mantis is in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic is that Hethor is a shape shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer creature called a peryton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him during his escape into the mountains but eventually decides it is a constellation. Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia, riding a winged creature with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone soldiers. So peryton becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both in Severian's earlier dream and during the snatching the winged creature is noted to have a mitre of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era pterodon. But it also is supposed to have the head of a hag which sends things into a mythological slant I won't pursue here. Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection satifying. It is all based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. There is no physical resemblance nor psychological resemblance to twisted, mysterious Hethor. To me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth resident who would instinctively fight to save Urth without much care or thought to deeper issues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark eyes, not violet, and is a very big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good candidate for a poppet doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box all day waiting to spend the night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish version of Thecla is...) However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to me for a few reasons. Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to transport his larger pets around. There are some interesting early (SotT) statements Hethor makes to identify himself. Stammering, he says something like "I the old captain, the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying pets." I take this to be a true description, though I can't tell whether Hethor is describing a series of promotions or demotions on the ship. But I think he was, at some point, captain. In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain, an angelic, shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's story). I think this lends credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a winged, shape shifting creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen angel? Hethor also describes himself as serving on the Quasar, and on a ship with a hundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he served as the captain of the "limping ship". In the time of BotNS's writing I think quasars were theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to black holes. So I think the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be) Tzadkiel's ship because its primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was to carry the New Sun back to earth. So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain of? Some suggest it was the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the antechamber prisoners and that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could be the case, but then he would be a normal human not a shapeshifter. There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to have avoided attempts at explanation through all these years. This is The Citadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which is like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship is an alternate version of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This ship was apparently poorly captained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his stolen paracoita?) and got stuck. bsharp --- ### Macronaut *05 May 2006, 15:01 · in reply to b sharp* I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of Typhon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's an interesting idea -- is there textual support for that? Or am I misinterpreting? Macronaut > --- b sharp wrote: > I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of > Purn as Hethor and > Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar > Labyrinth. Perhaps Mantis > is in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic > is that Hethor is a shape > shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer > creature called a > peryton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him > during his escape into > the mountains but eventually decides it is a > constellation. > > Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia, > riding a winged creature > with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone > soldiers. So peryton > becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both > in Severian's earlier > dream and during the snatching the winged creature > is noted to have a mitre > of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era > pterodon. But it also is > supposed to have the head of a hag which sends > things into a mythological > slant I won't pursue here. > > Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection > satifying. It is all > based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. > There is no physical > resemblance nor psychological resemblance to > twisted, mysterious Hethor. To > me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth > resident who would > instinctively fight to save Urth without much care > or thought to deeper > issues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark > eyes, not violet, and is a > very big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good > candidate for a poppet > doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box > all day waiting to spend > the night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish > version of Thecla is...) > > However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to > me for a few reasons. > Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to > transport his larger pets > around. There are some interesting early (SotT) > statements Hethor makes to > identify himself. Stammering, he says something > like "I the old captain, > the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying > pets." I take this to be > a true description, though I can't tell whether > Hethor is describing a > series of promotions or demotions on the ship. But > I think he was, at some > point, captain. > > In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain, > an angelic, > shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's > story). I think this lends > credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a > winged, shape shifting > creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen > angel? > > Hethor also describes himself as serving on the > Quasar, and on a ship with a > hundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he > served as the captain of > the "limping ship". In the time of BotNS's writing > I think quasars were > theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to > black holes. So I think > the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be) > Tzadkiel's ship because its > primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was > to carry the New Sun > back to earth. > > So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain > of? Some suggest it was > the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the > antechamber prisoners and > that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could > be the case, but then he > would be a normal human not a shapeshifter. > > There is another ship which looms very large in > BotNS but seems so far to > have avoided attempts at explanation through all > these years. This is The > Citadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par > with the Quasar due to > its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the > Hierodule's ship which > is like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship > is an alternate version > of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This > ship was apparently poorly > captained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his > stolen paracoita?) and > got stuck. > > bsharp > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Rex Racer *05 May 2006, 15:28 · in reply to Macronaut* I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number of the towers being "landers" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and descriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old spaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part coming from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures and extensions slowly accreting through time. I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to reference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a massive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port. > On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote: > > I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed > to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of > Typhon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that > the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's > an interesting idea -- is there textual support for > that? Or am I misinterpreting? > > Macronaut > > --- b sharp wrote: >> I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of >> Purn as Hethor and >> Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar >> Labyrinth. Perhaps Mantis >> is in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic >> is that Hethor is a shape >> shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer >> creature called a >> peryton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him >> during his escape into >> the mountains but eventually decides it is a >> constellation. >> >> Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia, >> riding a winged creature >> with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone >> soldiers. So peryton >> becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both >> in Severian's earlier >> dream and during the snatching the winged creature >> is noted to have a mitre >> of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era >> pterodon. But it also is >> supposed to have the head of a hag which sends >> things into a mythological >> slant I won't pursue here. >> >> Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection >> satifying. It is all >> based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. >> There is no physical >> resemblance nor psychological resemblance to >> twisted, mysterious Hethor. To >> me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth >> resident who would >> instinctively fight to save Urth without much care >> or thought to deeper >> issues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark >> eyes, not violet, and is a >> very big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good >> candidate for a poppet >> doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box >> all day waiting to spend >> the night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish >> version of Thecla is...) >> >> However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to >> me for a few reasons. >> Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to >> transport his larger pets >> around. There are some interesting early (SotT) >> statements Hethor makes to >> identify himself. Stammering, he says something >> like "I the old captain, >> the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying >> pets." I take this to be >> a true description, though I can't tell whether >> Hethor is describing a >> series of promotions or demotions on the ship. But >> I think he was, at some >> point, captain. >> >> In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain, >> an angelic, >> shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's >> story). I think this lends >> credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a >> winged, shape shifting >> creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen >> angel? >> >> Hethor also describes himself as serving on the >> Quasar, and on a ship with a >> hundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he >> served as the captain of >> the "limping ship". In the time of BotNS's writing >> I think quasars were >> theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to >> black holes. So I think >> the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be) >> Tzadkiel's ship because its >> primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was >> to carry the New Sun >> back to earth. >> >> So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain >> of? Some suggest it was >> the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the >> antechamber prisoners and >> that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could >> be the case, but then he >> would be a normal human not a shapeshifter. >> >> There is another ship which looms very large in >> BotNS but seems so far to >> have avoided attempts at explanation through all >> these years. This is The >> Citadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par >> with the Quasar due to >> its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the >> Hierodule's ship which >> is like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship >> is an alternate version >> of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This >> ship was apparently poorly >> captained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his >> stolen paracoita?) and >> got stuck. >> >> bsharp >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Duncan Truter *05 May 2006, 15:31 · in reply to Rex Racer* agreed. the 'towers' were individual spaceships, from what I gathered. > On 5/5/06, Rex Racer wrote: > I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number of > the towers being "landers" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and > descriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old > spaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part coming > from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures and > extensions slowly accreting through time. > > I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to > reference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a > massive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port. > > > On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote: >> I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed >> to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of >> Typhon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that >> the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's >> an interesting idea -- is there textual support for >> that? Or am I misinterpreting? >> >> Macronaut >> >> --- b sharp wrote: >>> I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of >>> Purn as Hethor and >>> Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar >>> Labyrinth. Perhaps Mantis >>> is in agreement on this idea. I believe the logic >>> is that Hethor is a shape >>> shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer >>> creature called a >>> peryton. Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him >>> during his escape into >>> the mountains but eventually decides it is a >>> constellation. >>> >>> Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia, >>> riding a winged creature >>> with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone >>> soldiers. So peryton >>> becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both >>> in Severian's earlier >>> dream and during the snatching the winged creature >>> is noted to have a mitre >>> of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era >>> pterodon. But it also is >>> supposed to have the head of a hag which sends >>> things into a mythological >>> slant I won't pursue here. >>> >>> Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection >>> satifying. It is all >>> based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. >>> There is no physical >>> resemblance nor psychological resemblance to >>> twisted, mysterious Hethor. To >>> me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth >>> resident who would >>> instinctively fight to save Urth without much care >>> or thought to deeper >>> issues or personal demons. Also, Gunnie has dark >>> eyes, not violet, and is a >>> very big, strong, aggressive woman. Hardly a good >>> candidate for a poppet >>> doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box >>> all day waiting to spend >>> the night with Hethor. (But perhaps a childish >>> version of Thecla is...) >>> >>> However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to >>> me for a few reasons. >>> Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to >>> transport his larger pets >>> around. There are some interesting early (SotT) >>> statements Hethor makes to >>> identify himself. Stammering, he says something >>> like "I the old captain, >>> the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying >>> pets." I take this to be >>> a true description, though I can't tell whether >>> Hethor is describing a >>> series of promotions or demotions on the ship. But >>> I think he was, at some >>> point, captain. >>> >>> In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain, >>> an angelic, >>> shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's >>> story). I think this lends >>> credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a >>> winged, shape shifting >>> creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen >>> angel? >>> >>> Hethor also describes himself as serving on the >>> Quasar, and on a ship with a >>> hundreds masts and silver sails. He also says he >>> served as the captain of >>> the "limping ship". In the time of BotNS's writing >>> I think quasars were >>> theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to >>> black holes. So I think >>> the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be) >>> Tzadkiel's ship because its >>> primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was >>> to carry the New Sun >>> back to earth. >>> >>> So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain >>> of? Some suggest it was >>> the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the >>> antechamber prisoners and >>> that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could >>> be the case, but then he >>> would be a normal human not a shapeshifter. >>> >>> There is another ship which looms very large in >>> BotNS but seems so far to >>> have avoided attempts at explanation through all >>> these years. This is The >>> Citadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par >>> with the Quasar due to >>> its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the >>> Hierodule's ship which >>> is like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship >>> is an alternate version >>> of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This >>> ship was apparently poorly >>> captained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his >>> stolen paracoita?) and >>> got stuck. >>> >>> bsharp >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### mournings glory *05 May 2006, 15:35 · in reply to b sharp* > From: "b sharp" > Hethor is presumed to be [shape-shifted] when Agia, riding a winged > creature > with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone soldiers. So peryton > becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both in Severian's earlier > dream and during the snatching the winged creature is noted to have a mitre > of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era pterodon. Pterodon does yield the letters to form the homologous snippet, p-e-r-n. But perhaps even more interesting the word "purn" itself means "bone, skull" in proto-Dravidian. I'd been looking for a Korean or Chinese linguistic connection, and never mentioned the proto-Dravidian "purn" before because I couldn't connect it with Hethor/Purn until you brought up the "mitre of bone" angle. My thanks. > Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection satifying. It is all > based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. There is no physical > resemblance nor psychological resemblance to twisted, mysterious Hethor. > However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to me for a few reasons. > Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to transport his larger pets > around. I'm not crazy about the evidence for shape-shifting (such creatures populate Wolfe's universe like ants), but if it is so beguiling to you, you should have little trouble accepting the fact that one could appear as either small and gray-haired (Hethor) or more solidly-built and blond-haired (Purn). In regards to Mr. Lackey's earlier disastisfaction with the Purn=Hethor theory, I find it sound and well-reasoned. However, the fact that Wolfe brings up the beast-summoning mirrors in front of Purn and implies he is somewhat jealous when Gunnie bestows a kiss upon Severian suggests he wants us to at least consider the parallels between him and Hethor. Perhaps the nameless, but mysterious, little gray-haired man also noted to be aboard the Quasar simply overhears Sev talking about the mirrors, as well as sees Burgundafora kissing him, and it's he who's actually Hethor. [snip] > Some suggest... that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. Never quite understood the tenuous connection here -- mostly because I don't understand how, in the concatenation of names, one arrives at "Hethor" from "KimLeeSoong." > There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to > have avoided attempts at explanation through all these years. This is The > Citadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to > its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which > is like a flying saucer). I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl? em --- ### Andy Robertson *05 May 2006, 15:37 · in reply to Duncan Truter* Duncan Truter writes: > agreed. the 'towers' were individual spaceships, from what I gathered. In the visionary section at the end of the Long Sun books, the Matachin Tower is described as "the Malacic Transport" or some such thing. I can't remember the exact word but the implication is clearly that the Citadel is a spaceport and the towers are individual ships. --- ### pthwndxrclzp *05 May 2006, 16:52 · in reply to mournings glory* I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth. Though I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually stated in the books. > On 5/5/06, mournings glory wrote: > > I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its > smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around > Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to > hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl? --- ### Rex Racer *05 May 2006, 17:01 · in reply to pthwndxrclzp* Actually I believe it was mentioned, or apparent from context.. I seem to remember Mamelta maybe telling Silk about the landers coming and going (Why don't I just get a second copy of them all here for my office?!) . It is a hollowed out asteroid, so it would seem almost senseless to bring it down, fill it up and launch something like a small moon into orbit. The mind boggles alone on the energy required to get something of that size to 7miles/sec (escape velocity) And the Wall around Nessus? Well- it is probably just a wall (though a feat of engineering that one could live their whole life in). Wolfe hides things in things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into things that just are themselves. > On 5/5/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote: > > I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth. > Though I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually > stated in the books. > > > On 5/5/06, mournings glory wrote: >> I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its >> smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around >> Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to >> hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl? > _______________________________________________ --- ### Duncan Truter *05 May 2006, 17:05 · in reply to Rex Racer* > > Rex Racer wrote: > in things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into > things that just are themselves. well said, I've felt like saying that already today :) --- ### Roy C. Lackey *05 May 2006, 19:00 · follows Duncan Truter* >> Rex Racer wrote: >> I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to >> reference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a massive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.<< That is correct. The Citadel was the old space port. See, URTH, chapter XXXV, p-251. -Roy --- ### Tristan Davenport *05 May 2006, 19:27 · in reply to Rex Racer* > Actually I believe it was mentioned, or apparent from context.. I seem to > remember Mamelta maybe telling Silk about the landers coming and going (Why > don't I just get a second copy of them all here for my office?!) . Perhaps Mamelta said so, but I seem to remember a flashback from Maytera Marble, too (instead?). She was herded onto the lander and has a clear memory of admiring one of the chem soldiers who was standing guard. I think that was in Lake or Calde otLS Tristan tristan_davenport at hotmail.com > It is a > hollowed out asteroid, so it would seem almost senseless to bring it down, > fill it up and launch something like a small moon into orbit. The mind > boggles alone on the energy required to get something of that size to > 7miles/sec (escape velocity) > > And the Wall around Nessus? Well- it is probably just a wall (though a feat > of engineering that one could live their whole life in). Wolfe hides things > in things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into > things that just are themselves. > > On 5/5/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote: >> I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth. >> Though I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually >> stated in the books. >> >> >> On 5/5/06, mournings glory wrote: >>> I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its >>> smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall >>> around >>> Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built >>> to >>> hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl? >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *06 May 2006, 04:55 · in reply to Rex Racer* > Rex Racer wrote: > I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number > of the towers being "landers" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and > descriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old > spaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part > coming from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures > and extensions slowly accreting through time. > > I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to > reference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a > massive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port. The Wall, with the peculiar positioning of the guardsmen inside it, could be a huge, grounded spin-gravity generation ship, similar to the Whorl, but hollow on the inside and roofed over. During flight gravity would be outward, along the radius, rather than along the axis, so some furnishings and fixtures would be seen as pointing the wrong way, or swiveling crew compartments could likewise be worth remarking on. Any sizable ship landing under thrust would clear the ground for some distance around, so its possible that you have a circular ship forming the wall around Nessus, only it landed far outside of town, then the town grew out to meet and enter it. Or it could merely be the wall of the Citadel, created when smaller ships landed inside it to avoid blasting the countryside or to be convenient to the other ships and shared utilities. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### maru dubshinki *06 May 2006, 07:38 · in reply to Macronaut* > On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote: > I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed > to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of > Typhon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that > the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's > an interesting idea -- is there textual support for > that? Or am I misinterpreting? > > Macronaut I agree with the others. The only textual support I can possibly see would be the intricate tunnel systems being actually corridors and tubing etc. But that's pretty thin. ~maru --- ### mournings glory *06 May 2006, 16:37 · in reply to maru dubshinki* > On 5/5/06, Macronaut wrote: >> I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed >> to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of >> Typhon. But I don't recall anything suggesting that >> the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship. It's >> an interesting idea -- is there textual support for >> that? Or am I misinterpreting? > From: "maru dubshinki" > > I agree with the others. The only textual support I can possibly see > would be the intricate tunnel systems being actually corridors and > tubing etc. But that's pretty thin. Totally unsure if this is relevant or not, but at the end of _Shadow_, as Sev and his friends approach the Nessus Wall, we are told "It is of black metal, like the walls of the Citadel, and for this reason it seemed less terrible to me than it would have otherwise--the buildings I had seen in the city were of stone or brick, and to come now on the material I had known from earliest childhood was no unpleasant thing." Now in a resource-depleted world, walls of metal seem odd to me -- especially one that seems to make the Great Wall of China look like a child's miniature. Then again maybe/probably both walls were constructed at a much earlier time by the same technology and design team? Dunno. It also seems to me that when Severian enters Nessus in _Urth_, there is no Wall in place. Plus Baldanders seems to imply he knows why the Wall was built and it's his pele tower at Lake Diuturna upon which the saucer ship of the Hierodules parks itself. ehm --- ### b sharp *07 May 2006, 03:28 · follows mournings glory* Thanks to Macronaut and mourning's glory for those posts on Hethor. So it seems we have two contenders for Hethor on Tzadkiel's ship. Is one a red herring? One is big blonde Purn (if only he was Pern...) who feeds the dying pets (though seems unlikely to be a cook). And the other is "a little man with dirty gray hair like Hethor" who might be a lieutenant...to a captain of the jibers, who is subsequently killed...elevating Hethor to captain? Would Wolfe be so devious as to disguise Hethor with a simile? Also that little gray guy is in a very weird scene which I forgot about. Sev is alone after scaring off Zak when a forcefield seems to catch and hold him. He is captured (or maybe killed again?) by a group of jibers and forced to watch a movie clip showing a "semblance" of himself as autarch in his court. He is told to imitate the semblance or be killed. What is all this about and why is this "semblance" so important as to rate its own chapter? --- ### Stanislaus *10 May 2006, 16:23 · in reply to b sharp* Hello bsharp, > Friday, May 5, 2006, 3:41:10 PM, you wrote: > There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to > have avoided attempts at explanation through all these years. This is The > Citadel. I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to > its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which > is like a flying saucer). I think the Citadel ship is an alternate version > of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain. This ship was apparently poorly > captained, flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his stolen paracoita?) and > got stuck. > bsharp Citadel is not a ship, but a starport. Some of the towers (Matachin Tower, but not the witches' tower) are ships, or better - atomic rockets. ``` Best regards, Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Poznaj Stefana! Zmien komunikator! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1924 ``` ---