Hethor
The Urth list — 16 messages, 12 voices, 05 May 2006
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b sharp — 05 May 2006, 13:41

I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of Purn as Hethor and 
Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar Labyrinth.  Perhaps Mantis 
is in agreement on this idea.  I believe the logic is that Hethor is a shape 
shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer creature called a 
peryton.  Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him during his escape into 
the mountains but eventually decides it is a constellation.

Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia, riding a winged creature 
with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone soldiers.  So peryton 
becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both in Severian's earlier 
dream and during the snatching the winged creature is noted to have a mitre 
of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era pterodon.  But it also is 
supposed to have the head of a hag which sends things into a mythological 
slant I won't pursue here.

Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection satifying.  It is all 
based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor.  There is no physical 
resemblance nor psychological resemblance to twisted, mysterious Hethor.  To 
me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth resident who would 
instinctively fight to save Urth without much care or thought to deeper 
issues or personal demons.  Also, Gunnie has dark eyes, not violet, and is a 
very big, strong, aggressive woman.  Hardly a good candidate for a poppet 
doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box all day waiting to spend 
the night with Hethor.   (But perhaps a childish version of Thecla is...)

However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to me for a few reasons.  
Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to transport his larger pets 
around.  There are some interesting early (SotT) statements Hethor makes to 
identify himself.  Stammering, he says something like  "I the old captain, 
the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying pets." I take this to be 
a true description, though I can't tell whether Hethor is describing a 
series of promotions or demotions on the ship.  But I think he was, at some 
point, captain.

In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain, an angelic, 
shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's story).  I think this lends 
credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a winged, shape shifting 
creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen angel?

Hethor also describes himself as serving on the Quasar, and on a ship with a 
hundreds masts and silver sails.   He also says he served as the captain of 
the "limping ship".  In the time of BotNS's writing I think quasars were 
theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to black holes.  So I think 
the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be) Tzadkiel's ship because its 
primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was to carry the New Sun 
back to earth.

So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain of?  Some suggest it was 
the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the antechamber prisoners and 
that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could be the case, but then he 
would be a normal human not a shapeshifter.

There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to 
have avoided attempts at explanation through all these years.  This is The 
Citadel.  I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to 
its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which 
is like a flying saucer).  I think the Citadel ship is an alternate version 
of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain.  This ship was apparently poorly 
captained,  flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his stolen paracoita?) and 
got stuck.

bsharp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Macronaut — 05 May 2006, 15:01
  in reply to b sharp

I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed
to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of
Typhon.  But I don't recall anything suggesting that
the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship.  It's
an interesting idea -- is there textual support for
that? Or am I misinterpreting?

Macronaut

> --- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of
> Purn as Hethor and 
> Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar
> Labyrinth.  Perhaps Mantis 
> is in agreement on this idea.  I believe the logic
> is that Hethor is a shape 
> shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer
> creature called a 
> peryton.  Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him
> during his escape into 
> the mountains but eventually decides it is a
> constellation.
> 
> Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia,
> riding a winged creature 
> with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone
> soldiers.  So peryton 
> becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both
> in Severian's earlier 
> dream and during the snatching the winged creature
> is noted to have a mitre 
> of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era
> pterodon.  But it also is 
> supposed to have the head of a hag which sends
> things into a mythological 
> slant I won't pursue here.
> 
> Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection
> satifying.  It is all 
> based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor. 
> There is no physical 
> resemblance nor psychological resemblance to
> twisted, mysterious Hethor.  To 
> me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth
> resident who would 
> instinctively fight to save Urth without much care
> or thought to deeper 
> issues or personal demons.  Also, Gunnie has dark
> eyes, not violet, and is a 
> very big, strong, aggressive woman.  Hardly a good
> candidate for a poppet 
> doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box
> all day waiting to spend 
> the night with Hethor.   (But perhaps a childish
> version of Thecla is...)
> 
> However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to
> me for a few reasons.  
> Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to
> transport his larger pets 
> around.  There are some interesting early (SotT)
> statements Hethor makes to 
> identify himself.  Stammering, he says something
> like  "I the old captain, 
> the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying
> pets." I take this to be 
> a true description, though I can't tell whether
> Hethor is describing a 
> series of promotions or demotions on the ship.  But
> I think he was, at some 
> point, captain.
> 
> In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain,
> an angelic, 
> shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's
> story).  I think this lends 
> credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a
> winged, shape shifting 
> creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen
> angel?
> 
> Hethor also describes himself as serving on the
> Quasar, and on a ship with a 
> hundreds masts and silver sails.   He also says he
> served as the captain of 
> the "limping ship".  In the time of BotNS's writing
> I think quasars were 
> theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to
> black holes.  So I think 
> the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be)
> Tzadkiel's ship because its 
> primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was
> to carry the New Sun 
> back to earth.
> 
> So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain
> of?  Some suggest it was 
> the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the
> antechamber prisoners and 
> that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could
> be the case, but then he 
> would be a normal human not a shapeshifter.
> 
> There is another ship which looms very large in
> BotNS but seems so far to 
> have avoided attempts at explanation through all
> these years.  This is The 
> Citadel.  I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par
> with the Quasar due to 
> its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the
> Hierodule's ship which 
> is like a flying saucer).  I think the Citadel ship
> is an alternate version 
> of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain.  This
> ship was apparently poorly 
> captained,  flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his
> stolen paracoita?) and 
> got stuck.
> 
> bsharp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rex Racer — 05 May 2006, 15:28
  in reply to Macronaut

I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number of
the towers being "landers" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and
descriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old
spaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part coming
from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures and
extensions slowly accreting through time.

I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to reference,
but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a massive ship on
par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.

> On 5/5/06, Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed
> to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of
> Typhon.  But I don't recall anything suggesting that
> the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship.  It's
> an interesting idea -- is there textual support for
> that? Or am I misinterpreting?
> 
> Macronaut
> 
> --- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:

> > I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of
> > Purn as Hethor and
> > Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar
> > Labyrinth.  Perhaps Mantis
> > is in agreement on this idea.  I believe the logic
> > is that Hethor is a shape
> > shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer
> > creature called a
> > peryton.  Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him
> > during his escape into
> > the mountains but eventually decides it is a
> > constellation.
> > 
> > Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia,
> > riding a winged creature
> > with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone
> > soldiers.  So peryton
> > becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both
> > in Severian's earlier
> > dream and during the snatching the winged creature
> > is noted to have a mitre
> > of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era
> > pterodon.  But it also is
> > supposed to have the head of a hag which sends
> > things into a mythological
> > slant I won't pursue here.
> > 
> > Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection
> > satifying.  It is all
> > based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor.
> > There is no physical
> > resemblance nor psychological resemblance to
> > twisted, mysterious Hethor.  To
> > me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth
> > resident who would
> > instinctively fight to save Urth without much care
> > or thought to deeper
> > issues or personal demons.  Also, Gunnie has dark
> > eyes, not violet, and is a
> > very big, strong, aggressive woman.  Hardly a good
> > candidate for a poppet
> > doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box
> > all day waiting to spend
> > the night with Hethor.   (But perhaps a childish
> > version of Thecla is...)
> > 
> > However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to
> > me for a few reasons.
> > Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to
> > transport his larger pets
> > around.  There are some interesting early (SotT)
> > statements Hethor makes to
> > identify himself.  Stammering, he says something
> > like  "I the old captain,
> > the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying
> > pets." I take this to be
> > a true description, though I can't tell whether
> > Hethor is describing a
> > series of promotions or demotions on the ship.  But
> > I think he was, at some
> > point, captain.
> > 
> > In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain,
> > an angelic,
> > shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's
> > story).  I think this lends
> > credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a
> > winged, shape shifting
> > creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen
> > angel?
> > 
> > Hethor also describes himself as serving on the
> > Quasar, and on a ship with a
> > hundreds masts and silver sails.   He also says he
> > served as the captain of
> > the "limping ship".  In the time of BotNS's writing
> > I think quasars were
> > theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to
> > black holes.  So I think
> > the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be)
> > Tzadkiel's ship because its
> > primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was
> > to carry the New Sun
> > back to earth.
> > 
> > So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain
> > of?  Some suggest it was
> > the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the
> > antechamber prisoners and
> > that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could
> > be the case, but then he
> > would be a normal human not a shapeshifter.
> > 
> > There is another ship which looms very large in
> > BotNS but seems so far to
> > have avoided attempts at explanation through all
> > these years.  This is The
> > Citadel.  I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par
> > with the Quasar due to
> > its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the
> > Hierodule's ship which
> > is like a flying saucer).  I think the Citadel ship
> > is an alternate version
> > of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain.  This
> > ship was apparently poorly
> > captained,  flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his
> > stolen paracoita?) and
> > got stuck.
> > 
> > bsharp
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Truter — 05 May 2006, 15:31
  in reply to Rex Racer

agreed. the 'towers' were individual spaceships, from what I gathered.

> On 5/5/06, Rex Racer <rex.racerx at gmail.com> wrote:
> I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number of
> the towers being "landers" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and
> descriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old
> spaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part coming
> from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures and
> extensions slowly accreting through time.
> 
>  I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to
> reference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a
> massive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.
> 
> 
> On 5/5/06, Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com > wrote:

> > I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed
> > to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of
> > Typhon.  But I don't recall anything suggesting that
> > the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship.  It's
> > an interesting idea -- is there textual support for
> > that? Or am I misinterpreting?
> > 
> > Macronaut
> > 
> > --- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > I first saw the idea of Mourning Glory's mention of
> > > Purn as Hethor and
> > > Gunnie as his paracoita in Robert Borski's Solar
> > > Labyrinth.  Perhaps Mantis
> > > is in agreement on this idea.  I believe the logic
> > > is that Hethor is a shape
> > > shifter, taking the form of a half-bird, half-deer
> > > creature called a
> > > peryton.  Severian sees the peryton/Hethor over him
> > > during his escape into
> > > the mountains but eventually decides it is a
> > > constellation.
> > > 
> > > Hethor is presumed to be in this form when Agia,
> > > riding a winged creature
> > > with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone
> > > soldiers.  So peryton
> > > becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both
> > > in Severian's earlier
> > > dream and during the snatching the winged creature
> > > is noted to have a mitre
> > > of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era
> > > pterodon.  But it also is
> > > supposed to have the head of a hag which sends
> > > things into a mythological
> > > slant I won't pursue here.
> > > 
> > > Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection
> > > satifying.  It is all
> > > based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor.
> > > There is no physical
> > > resemblance nor psychological resemblance to
> > > twisted, mysterious Hethor.  To
> > > me Purn seems to represent the simple, average Urth
> > > resident who would
> > > instinctively fight to save Urth without much care
> > > or thought to deeper
> > > issues or personal demons.  Also, Gunnie has dark
> > > eyes, not violet, and is a
> > > very big, strong, aggressive woman.  Hardly a good
> > > candidate for a poppet
> > > doll with small hands who lays in a lemonwood box
> > > all day waiting to spend
> > > the night with Hethor.   (But perhaps a childish
> > > version of Thecla is...)
> > > 
> > > However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to
> > > me for a few reasons.
> > > Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to
> > > transport his larger pets
> > > around.  There are some interesting early (SotT)
> > > statements Hethor makes to
> > > identify himself.  Stammering, he says something
> > > like  "I the old captain,
> > > the old lieutenant, the old cook, feeding the dying
> > > pets." I take this to be
> > > a true description, though I can't tell whether
> > > Hethor is describing a
> > > series of promotions or demotions on the ship.  But
> > > I think he was, at some
> > > point, captain.
> > > 
> > > In UotNS we find in Tzadkiel, another ship captain,
> > > an angelic,
> > > shapeshifting being (as is the angel in Melito's
> > > story).  I think this lends
> > > credence to the idea of captain Hethor also being a
> > > winged, shape shifting
> > > creature, perhaps the obverse of Tzadkiel...a fallen
> > > angel?
> > > 
> > > Hethor also describes himself as serving on the
> > > Quasar, and on a ship with a
> > > hundreds masts and silver sails.   He also says he
> > > served as the captain of
> > > the "limping ship".  In the time of BotNS's writing
> > > I think quasars were
> > > theorized to be white fountains, the compliment to
> > > black holes.  So I think
> > > the Quasar is likely (what we later learn to be)
> > > Tzadkiel's ship because its
> > > primary literary purpose, in the first 4 books, was
> > > to carry the New Sun
> > > back to earth.
> > > 
> > > So what was the limping ship Hethor was the captain
> > > of?  Some suggest it was
> > > the ship that crashed leaving the ancestors of the
> > > antechamber prisoners and
> > > that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong. This could
> > > be the case, but then he
> > > would be a normal human not a shapeshifter.
> > > 
> > > There is another ship which looms very large in
> > > BotNS but seems so far to
> > > have avoided attempts at explanation through all
> > > these years.  This is The
> > > Citadel.  I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par
> > > with the Quasar due to
> > > its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the
> > > Hierodule's ship which
> > > is like a flying saucer).  I think the Citadel ship
> > > is an alternate version
> > > of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain.  This
> > > ship was apparently poorly
> > > captained,  flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his
> > > stolen paracoita?) and
> > > got stuck.
> > > 
> > > bsharp
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mournings glory — 05 May 2006, 15:35
  in reply to b sharp

> From: "b sharp"

> Hethor is presumed to be [shape-shifted] when Agia, riding a winged 
> creature
> with claws, later snatches Severian from the evzone soldiers.  So peryton
> becomes Purn (shades of Dragonriders of Pern?). Both in Severian's earlier
> dream and during the snatching the winged creature is noted to have a mitre
> of bone on its head, suggesting the dinosaur-era pterodon.

Pterodon does yield the letters to form the homologous snippet, p-e-r-n. But 
perhaps even more interesting the word "purn" itself means "bone, skull" in 
proto-Dravidian. I'd been looking for a Korean or Chinese linguistic 
connection, and never mentioned the proto-Dravidian "purn" before because I 
couldn't connect it with Hethor/Purn until you brought up the "mitre of 
bone" angle. My thanks.

> Like Roy, I don't find the Purn-Hethor connection satifying.  It is all
> based on the name Purn and that he is a sailor.  There is no physical
> resemblance nor psychological resemblance to twisted, mysterious Hethor.

> However, Hethor as a shape shifter is satisfying to me for a few reasons.
> Even Severian wonders how Hethor is able to transport his larger pets
> around.

I'm not crazy about the evidence for shape-shifting (such creatures populate 
Wolfe's universe like ants), but if it is so beguiling to you, you should 
have little trouble accepting the fact that one could appear as either small 
and gray-haired (Hethor) or more solidly-built and blond-haired (Purn).

In regards to Mr. Lackey's earlier disastisfaction with the Purn=Hethor 
theory, I find it sound and well-reasoned. However, the fact that Wolfe 
brings up the beast-summoning mirrors in front of Purn and implies he is 
somewhat jealous when Gunnie bestows a kiss upon Severian suggests he wants 
us to at least consider the parallels between him and Hethor. Perhaps the 
nameless, but mysterious, little gray-haired man also noted to be aboard the 
Quasar simply overhears Sev talking about the mirrors, as well as sees 
Burgundafora kissing him, and it's he who's actually Hethor.

[snip]

> Some suggest... that Hethor's real name is KimLeeSoong.

Never quite understood the tenuous connection here -- mostly because I don't 
understand how, in the concatenation of names, one arrives at "Hethor" from 
"KimLeeSoong."

> There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to
> have avoided attempts at explanation through all these years.  This is The
> Citadel.  I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to
> its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which
> is like a flying saucer).

I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its smaller 
bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around Nessus 
might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to hold the 
early stages of Typhon's Whorl?

em

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andy Robertson — 05 May 2006, 15:37
  in reply to Duncan Truter

Duncan Truter writes: 

> agreed. the 'towers' were individual spaceships, from what I gathered. 

In the visionary section at the end of the Long Sun books, the Matachin 
Tower is described as "the Malacic Transport" or some such thing.   I can't 
remember the exact word but the implication is clearly that the Citadel is a 
spaceport and the towers are individual ships.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pthwndxrclzp — 05 May 2006, 16:52
  in reply to mournings glory

I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth.
Though I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually
stated in the books.

> On 5/5/06, mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its
> smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around
> Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to
> hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rex Racer — 05 May 2006, 17:01
  in reply to pthwndxrclzp

Actually I believe it was mentioned, or apparent from context.. I seem to
remember Mamelta maybe telling Silk about the landers coming and going (Why
don't I just get a second copy of them all here for my office?!) . It is a
hollowed out asteroid, so it would seem almost senseless to bring it down,
fill it up and launch something like a small moon into orbit. The mind
boggles alone on the energy required to get something of that size to
7miles/sec (escape velocity)

And the Wall around Nessus? Well- it is probably just a wall (though a feat
of engineering that one could live their whole life in). Wolfe hides things
in things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into
things that just are themselves.

> On 5/5/06, pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth.
> Though I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually
> stated in the books.
> 
> 
> On 5/5/06, mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote:

> > I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its
> > smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall around
> > Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built to
> > hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl?

> _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Truter — 05 May 2006, 17:05
  in reply to Rex Racer

> <snip snip>
> Rex Racer wrote:
> in things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into
> things that just are themselves.

well said, I've felt like saying that already today :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy C. Lackey — 05 May 2006, 19:00
  follows, by subject match Duncan Truter

> > Rex Racer wrote:
> > I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to
> > reference,

but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a massive ship on
par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.<<

That is correct. The Citadel was the old space port. See, URTH, chapter
XXXV, p-251.

-Roy

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tristan Davenport — 05 May 2006, 19:27
  in reply to Rex Racer

> Actually I believe it was mentioned, or apparent from context.. I seem to
> remember Mamelta maybe telling Silk about the landers coming and going (Why
> don't I just get a second copy of them all here for my office?!) .

Perhaps Mamelta said so, but I seem to remember a flashback from Maytera 
Marble, too (instead?).  She was herded onto the lander and has a clear 
memory of admiring one of the chem soldiers who was standing guard.  I think 
that was in Lake or Calde otLS

                             Tristan
                             tristan_davenport at hotmail.com

> It is a
> hollowed out asteroid, so it would seem almost senseless to bring it down,
> fill it up and launch something like a small moon into orbit. The mind
> boggles alone on the energy required to get something of that size to
> 7miles/sec (escape velocity)
> 
> And the Wall around Nessus? Well- it is probably just a wall (though a feat
> of engineering that one could live their whole life in). Wolfe hides things
> in things, very, very true, but sometimes I think too much is read into
> things that just are themselves.
> 
> On 5/5/06, pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I always assumed the Whorl was constructed entirely in orbit around Urth.
> > Though I realize now this assumption was not based on anything actually
> > stated in the books.
> > 
> > 
> > On 5/5/06, mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > I believe the Quasar could easily contain the Citadel in one of its
> > > smaller bays, but now that you mention it once wondered if the Wall 
> > > around
> > > Nessus might not have been an ancient spaceship cradle -- perhaps built 
> > > to
> > > hold the early stages of Typhon's Whorl?

> > _______________________________________________

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Jeff Wilson — 06 May 2006, 04:55
  in reply to Rex Racer

> Rex Racer wrote:
> I remember the Citadel being not a ship, but a spaceport with any number 
> of the towers being "landers" as Silk calls (though the nomenclature and 
> descriptions in the BotNS makes it pretty clear that the towers are old 
> spaceships repurposed when the age of space flight (at least the part 
> coming from Urth) came to an end- walls being added, stone structures 
> and extensions slowly accreting through time.
> 
> I can claim no authoritative positon without the books at hand to 
> reference, but I remember nothing to indicate the whole Citadel being a 
> massive ship on par with the Quasar, rather than Nessus old space port.

The Wall, with the peculiar positioning of the guardsmen inside it, 
could be a huge, grounded spin-gravity generation ship, similar to the 
Whorl, but hollow on the inside and roofed over.  During flight gravity 
would be outward, along the radius, rather than along the axis, so some 
furnishings and fixtures would be seen as pointing the wrong way, or 
swiveling crew compartments could likewise be worth remarking on.

Any sizable ship landing under thrust would clear the ground for some 
distance around, so its possible that you have a circular ship forming 
the wall around Nessus, only it landed far outside of town, then the 
town grew out to meet and enter it. Or it could merely be the wall of 
the Citadel, created when smaller ships landed inside it to avoid 
blasting the countryside or to be convenient to the other ships and 
shared utilities.

  --
  Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
  < http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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maru dubshinki — 06 May 2006, 07:38
  in reply to Macronaut

> On 5/5/06, Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed
> to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of
> Typhon.  But I don't recall anything suggesting that
> the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship.  It's
> an interesting idea -- is there textual support for
> that? Or am I misinterpreting?
> 
> Macronaut

I agree with the others. The only textual support I can possibly see
would be the intricate tunnel systems being actually corridors and
tubing etc. But that's pretty thin.

~maru

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mournings glory — 06 May 2006, 16:37
  in reply to maru dubshinki

> On 5/5/06, Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > I remember that the towers of the citadel are revealed
> > to be ships waiting to leave Urth in the last days of
> > Typhon.  But I don't recall anything suggesting that
> > the citadel as a whole was itself one big ship.  It's
> > an interesting idea -- is there textual support for
> > that? Or am I misinterpreting?

> From: "maru dubshinki" <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
> 
> I agree with the others. The only textual support I can possibly see
> would be the intricate tunnel systems being actually corridors and
> tubing etc. But that's pretty thin.

Totally unsure if this is relevant or not, but at the end of _Shadow_, as 
Sev and his friends approach the Nessus Wall, we are told "It is of black 
metal, like the walls of the Citadel, and for this reason it seemed less 
terrible to me than it would have otherwise--the buildings I had seen in the 
city were of stone or brick, and to come now on the material I had known 
from earliest childhood was no unpleasant thing."

Now in a resource-depleted world, walls of metal seem odd to me -- 
especially one that seems to make the Great Wall of China look like a 
child's miniature. Then again maybe/probably both walls were constructed at 
a much earlier time by the same technology and design team? Dunno.

It also seems to me that when Severian enters Nessus in _Urth_, there is no 
Wall in place. Plus Baldanders seems to imply he knows why the Wall was 
built and it's his pele tower at Lake Diuturna upon which the saucer ship of 
the Hierodules parks itself.

ehm

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b sharp — 07 May 2006, 03:28
  follows, by subject match mournings glory

Thanks to Macronaut and mourning's glory for those posts on Hethor. So it 
seems we have two contenders for Hethor on Tzadkiel's ship. Is one a red 
herring?

One is big blonde Purn (if only he was Pern...) who feeds the dying pets 
(though seems unlikely to be a cook). And the other is "a little man with 
dirty gray hair like Hethor" who might be a lieutenant...to a captain of the 
jibers, who is subsequently killed...elevating Hethor to captain? Would 
Wolfe be so devious as to disguise Hethor with a simile?

Also that little gray guy is in a very weird scene which I forgot about.  
Sev is alone after scaring off Zak when a forcefield seems to catch and hold 
him. He is captured (or maybe killed again?) by a group of jibers and forced 
to watch a movie clip showing a "semblance" of himself as autarch in his 
court.  He is told to imitate the semblance or be killed.

What is all this about and why is this "semblance" so important as to rate 
its own chapter?

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Stanislaus — 10 May 2006, 16:23
  in reply to b sharp

Hello bsharp,

> Friday, May 5, 2006, 3:41:10 PM, you wrote:
> There is another ship which looms very large in BotNS but seems so far to
> have avoided attempts at explanation through all these years.  This is The
> Citadel.  I take The Citadel to be a ship on a par with the Quasar due to
> its large size and irregular shape (contrast to the Hierodule's ship which
> is like a flying saucer).  I think the Citadel ship is an alternate version
> of the Quasar, with Hethor as its captain.  This ship was apparently poorly
> captained,  flew too close to Urth (to retrieve his stolen paracoita?) and
> got stuck.

> bsharp

Citadel is not a ship, but a starport. Some of the towers (Matachin
Tower, but not the witches' tower) are ships, or better - atomic
rockets.

  --
  Best regards,
   Stanislaus                           mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm
  
  
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Poznaj Stefana! Zmien komunikator! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1924

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