{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4592", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4592, "subject": "Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-05-15T03:49:16+00:00", "last": "2006-05-29T10:26:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-15T03:49:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the vaults of this archinve there has been a fair amount of discussion \ncentered on the disturbance at the Piteous Gate that ends Shadow. I had \nalways felt it was something mysterious and worth knowing, as did some \nothers. Mantis and Tony Ellis and perhaps others argued vehemently that it \nwas merely the action of soldiers blocking the road and I think it was left \nat that.\n\nI found a passage which convinces me otherwise. When Severian first talks \nto Agia in Casdoe's cottage in Sword, they have this exchange:\n\nS- \"You've been trying to kill me ever since I glimpsed you in the crowd at \nSaltus\"\nA- \" Is that an accusation? Yes.\"\nS- \"You're lying.\"\nA- \"What do you mean?\"\nS- \"Only that you were trying to kill me before Saltus\"\nA- \"With the avern. Yes, of course\"\nS- \"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is\"\n\nI think this is author misdirection because on first reading I know I was \nthen more interested in Severian's extended insight about Hethor. But the \nfirst part of that sentence says that Agia (with Hethor's help implied) \ntried to kill Severian somewhere in the time between the avern duel and \nSaltus Fair, which she doesn't deny.\n\nI find no plausible setting for this attempt except the disturbance at the \nPiteous Gate. So Severian, in retrospect, has deduced that the cause of \nthe disturbance, the appearance of some undescribed creature, was an attempt \non his life by Agia and Hethor. Is there another possible interpretation?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605142212w21cb00d9gcaccbfabd0611948@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-15T05:12:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By George, I think b's got it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/14/06, b sharp wrote:\nIn the vaults of this archinve there has been a fair amount of discussion\ncentered on the disturbance at the Piteous Gate that ends Shadow. I had\nalways felt it was something mysterious and worth knowing, as did some\nothers. Mantis and Tony Ellis and perhaps others argued vehemently that it\nwas merely the action of soldiers blocking the road and I think it was left\nat that.\n\nI found a passage which convinces me otherwise. When Severian first talks\nto Agia in Casdoe's cottage in Sword, they have this exchange:\n\nS- \"You've been trying to kill me ever since I glimpsed you in the crowd at\nSaltus\"\nA- \" Is that an accusation? Yes.\"\nS- \"You're lying.\"\nA- \"What do you mean?\"\nS- \"Only that you were trying to kill me before Saltus\"\nA- \"With the avern. Yes, of course\"\nS- \"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is\"\n\nI think this is author misdirection because on first reading I know I was\nthen more interested in Severian's extended insight about Hethor. But the\nfirst part of that sentence says that Agia (with Hethor's help implied)\ntried to kill Severian somewhere in the time between the avern duel and\nSaltus Fair, which she doesn't deny.\n\nI find no plausible setting for this attempt except the disturbance at the\nPiteous Gate. So Severian, in retrospect, has deduced that the cause of\nthe disturbance, the appearance of some undescribed creature, was an attempt\non his life by Agia and Hethor. Is there another possible interpretation?\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-15T05:15:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"b sharp\" \n\nIn the vaults of this archinve there has been a fair amount of discussion\ncentered on the disturbance at the Piteous Gate that ends Shadow. I had\nalways felt it was something mysterious and worth knowing, as did some\nothers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, and perhaps exactly what is meant when Severian writes about \n\"certain dramatic pauses which shall signal to you that something of import \nis about to occur.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I found a passage which convinces me otherwise. When Severian first talks\nto Agia in Casdoe's cottage in Sword, they have this exchange:\n\nS- \"You've been trying to kill me ever since I glimpsed you in the crowd at\nSaltus\"\nA- \" Is that an accusation? Yes.\"\nS- \"You're lying.\"\nA- \"What do you mean?\"\nS- \"Only that you were trying to kill me before Saltus\"\nA- \"With the avern. Yes, of course\"\nS- \"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is\"\n\nI think this is author misdirection because on first reading I know I was\nthen more interested in Severian's extended insight about Hethor. But the\nfirst part of that sentence says that Agia (with Hethor's help implied)\ntried to kill Severian somewhere in the time between the avern duel and\nSaltus Fair, which she doesn't deny.\n\nI find no plausible setting for this attempt except the disturbance at the\nPiteous Gate. So Severian, in retrospect, has deduced that the cause of\nthe disturbance, the appearance of some undescribed creature, was an \nattempt\non his life by Agia and Hethor. Is there another possible interpretation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Mr. Lackey has postulated similarly, and while I think it's as \ncredible as any other theory, I'm not sure your particular quote bolsters it \nin any fashion. You're assuming, I believe, that \"afterward\" comes \nrelatively soon after the avern episode, whereas I believe it's referring to \n\"after\" the Saltus fair, when Severian and Jonas are attacked by Hethor's \nnotules.\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-15T15:29:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mourningsglory responds-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure your particular quote bolsters that idea in any fashion. \nYou're assuming, I believe, that \"afterward\" comes relatively soon after \nthe avern episode, whereas I believe it's referring to \"after\" the Saltus \nfair, when Severian and Jonas are attacked by Hethor's notules.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must respectfully disagree that Severian could be refering to events after \nSaltus Fair such as the man-ape cave, the notule attack, the antechamber \nslug and the salamander. If he were, Severian's and Agia's exchange would \nread, simplified:\n\nAgia: I've been trying to kill you since the Saltus Fair.\nSeverian: Liar, you've been trying to kill me since the Saltus Fair.\n\nWhich makes no sense. He must be refering to an attempt or attempts before \nSaltus Fair but after the avern duel. I think the only legitimate objection \nto my analysis would be if there was another plausible attempt on Severian's \nlife in that time period. I don't have my books here but the episodes in \nthat time frame I remember are: Severian in the recovery room, Severian \nwith Agia and Agilus in his cell, the execution, walking with Dorcas, \nperforming the Talos play, packing up the play properties and then walking \nto the Piteous Gate.\n\nThe only other candidates for murder attempts in this period I can think of \nare very weak: 1. In the cell, Agia attacks Severian scratching at his \neyes, and grabbing at his sabretache. 2. Later, as they are walking toward \nthe Piteous Gate, Hethor asks if he can carry Severian's sword. I don't \nthink it is in Hethor's repertoire to be swinging swords. But if Hethor \nknows an attack is coming soon, I can see why he would want to take Terminus \nEst from Severian.\n\nSeverian phrases his statements in the exchange to knock her off balance (as \nhe has physically, a couple times) by calling her a liar after she has told \nthe truth. I think Wolfe's purpose is much the same, to knock his reader \noff balance so the solution to one puzzle (Piteous Gate) is masked by the \nsolution to another (the source of the creatures).\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c67e95$0bade350$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T18:16:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate - one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies for dredging this up yet again, but I missed b_sharp's post\nwhen it appeared." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b_sharp wrote:\nS- \"You've been trying to kill me ever since I glimpsed you in the\ncrowd at \nSaltus\"\nA- \" Is that an accusation? Yes.\"\nS- \"You're lying.\"\nA- \"What do you mean?\"\nS- \"Only that you were trying to kill me before Saltus\"\nA- \"With the avern. Yes, of course\"\nS- \"And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ...the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "first part of that sentence says that Agia (with Hethor's help implied)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tried to kill Severian somewhere in the time between the avern duel and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Saltus Fair, which she doesn't deny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, what that sentence says is that Agia was *trying* to kill\nSeverian between the avern duel and Saltus Fair, not that she 'tried' to\nkill him. Yes, I know, I'm pedantic, but the distinction is crucial,\nbecause 'tried' requires a specific attempt on Severian's life, whereas\n'trying' offers rather more leeway. If, for example, last week I hired\nan assassin to kill you, then that week I was trying to kill you. \n\nAnd this exchange is all about Severian building up to the fact that he\nknows Agia hired Hethor to kill him. He's effectively saying: \"Agia, I\nknow you've had a hired killer on my trail since before Saltus.\"\n\nIt's also worth noting that nothing in the way this conversation\ncontinues suggests that anyone thinks Hethor used one of his creatures\nat the Piteous Gate. Agia says: \"He followed you for me after you killed\nAgilus; with his silver I hired the men you killed at the old mine, and\nthe creatures he commands will kill you for me yet.\"\n\nNot \"He followed you for me and tried to kill you at the Piteous Gate,\"\nyou notice. And the order in which Agia puts these events also makes\nsense if Hethor didn't start using his creatures until after Saltus.\nFollowed. Used silver. Used creatures.\n\nAfter this, Agia asks Severian how he guessed about Hethor. Severian\nproceeds to list all the monster attacks we know of, in order: notules,\nslime monster, salamander - explaining how each betrayed a connection to\nHethor. No mention of any monster at the Piteous Gate.\n\nThis is precisely my problem with the whole monster-at-the-Gate\nargument: why does Severian never mention it? A monster is a pretty big\ndeal, especially when it's the first one you've ever seen. Why, when\nSeverian dreams about the Gate at the start of Claw of the Conciliator,\ndoes he remember uhlans but not a monster? Why, when he meets Baldanders\nagain, does he refer to them getting separated but never say \"And wow,\nwhat about that monster in the Gate - that was really something, wasn't\nit?\" Why, when very other attack by Hethor's creatures gets written up,\nis this one omitted?\n\nThe fact is, we don't need a monster to explain the disturbance at the\nPiteous Gate. If you have a lot of people crushed into a confined space,\nthat's *all* you need to create a disturbance. If a bunch of armed\nguards turn up and start throwing their weight around, then it's just\nabout inevitable." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T19:34:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "<001701c67e95$0bade350$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Tony makes good points in his last post. He pokes a few holes in \nwhat I thought was an airtight case.\n\nThe problem as I see it is that Tony can't see the holes in his own theory, \nwhich I believe Roy and others have most eloquently presented (Feb 2006, The \nPiteous Gate).\n\nI think Tony considers his Uhlan explanation so clear and obvious that it \nexplains why the incident isn't discussed further in detail. So that \nsatisfies him.\n\nBut so many others disagree and feel more explanation is needed. Severian \ndoesn't mention the appearance of a monster or man-ape soldiers swarming \ntoward Hethor or the cruel behavior of 5 uhlans who almost got Dorcas killed \nor any explanation whatsoever. It is always \"the incident\" or \"the \ndisturbance\". If we ask \"why didn't Severian or anyone else explain the \nincident?\" the only sure answer we can make is because Wolfe won't let them \n(or per Tony, Wolfe doesn't see any need).\n\nTo me it is like seeing a blacked out portion on a page of text. We can \ndismiss it as nothing, just part of the text. Or we can deduce that someone \nblacked it out on purpose, wonder about the purpose and wonder what was \nerased.\n\nIf Wolfe is true to form on this mystery, there is one big, fat hint hiding \nsomewhere in the text, out of context, and a lot of small vague hints. I \nguess if we can't find it then Tony might be right.\n\n-bsharp\nPerhaps if it can't be found, then Tony is right." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T00:30:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate - one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "<001701c67e95$0bade350$6401a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Ellis' counterfactual to the Hethorgate Theory is excellent and I hope \nthat he will consent to its points being incorporated into the Piteous Gate \nsummation should the wiki ever come to pass.\n\nBut now for my own belated attempt at solving the mystery -- one semi-based \non an already extant theory.\n\nWould a sighting of an undine in the river Gyoll be enough to sally the \nAutarch's troops, both within the wall and without?\n\nI've been doing a lot of background reading on undines given the recent \nspate of posts about them, and one of things I learned about Juturna is that \n\"After successfully keeping her brother Turnus away from Aeneas, who she \nknew was ordained to kill him in single combat, Juturna, who had disguised \nherself as his charioteer Metiscus and *had restored to him his lost sword \nmade by Vulcan,* was compelled by the warning of a Fury (sent by Jupiter) to \ngive up the struggle to save her brother, and sank lamenting into her spring \nat Lanuvium.\" [From _Who's Who in Classical Mythology_]. Now if Wolfe is \nstaying true to the model, this means that it's Juturna who's returning \nTerminus Est to Severian when he falls into the Lake of Birds (\"it seemed \nthe hand's owner was returning my property to me\") -- just as Severian will \nreturn the broken pieces of TE at the end of _Sword_ to Lake Diuturna, which \nas has been recently pointed out is an alternate name for Juturna.\n\nWe're also told that the avern -- an extremely deadly plant -- has been \nplanted by Father Inire to keep manatees out of the Botanic Gardens, but \nthis seems like a rather dire method for keeping out simple sea cows, \nwhereas if they were meant to delimit undines and possibly Abaia...well, it \nseems like a much more effective and logical defense.\n\nAlso: since the undines experience time backwards, and their past is our \nfuture, could the incident at the Piteous Gate be caused by Juturna entering \nNessus by the river conduit, on her way to retrieve Terminus Est for \nSeverian -- an event for him which has already taken place, but which for \nher looms on a different temporal horizon?\n\nmourning s glory" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4473B8E8.3000809@bitterman.net>", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2006-05-24T01:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate - one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mournings glory wrote:\nWe're also told that the avern -- an extremely deadly plant -- has been \nplanted by Father Inire to keep manatees out of the Botanic Gardens, but \nthis seems like a rather dire method for keeping out simple sea cows, \nwhereas if they were meant to delimit undines" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "gigantic underwater women == sea cows. Father Inire has a droll sense \nof humor.\n\nenamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c67f5e$1c902560$de3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-24T18:15:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate - one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "<4473B8E8.3000809@bitterman.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mourning s glory wrote:\nBut now for my own belated attempt at solving the mystery -- one semi-based\non an already extant theory.\n\nWould a sighting of an undine in the river Gyoll be enough to sally the\nAutarch's troops, both within the wall and without?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The main problem with this theory (as with the Borski version you allude to)\nis one of logistics. I know of no river conduit anywhere near the Piteous\nGate. It required an afternoon's walk from the Botanic Gardens to reach the\nInn of Lost Loves, which was near the Sanguinary Field. The Field itself was\nstill \"leagues\" away from the Wall. The military compound where Severian was\ntaken after the duel is on one side of the Field. After leaving the\nbarracks, Severian and Dorcas had to walk for some time before they found\nTalos and his troupe. The next morning they had to walk some unspecified\namount of time before they caught sight of the road and the gate, which was\nstill \"half a league\" away. Best I can tell, the Gate was many miles away\nfrom Gyoll.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T18:30:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c67f5e$1c902560$de3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mournings glory's theory on the incident at Piteous Gate is a good one.\n\nCould the extant theory it is semi-based be Borski's idea that Baldanders \nmates with Juturna shortly after the group separation at the gate, thus \ngiving him his underwater breathing ability? Hildegrin calls it \"the affair \nat the gate\". Watching Baldanders and Juturna mate might make me run away \nscreaming also ;-).\n\nI think Maxellindas' uncle makes reference to the undines in relation to \nmanatees (and let's not forget nixies!) so I've long thought the averns were \nto keep out undines. How does Juturna get past the averns? I like the idea \nthat it isn't Dorcas returning his sword. And, in Arthurian terms, Juturna \n(Diuturna) makes a very nice Lady Of The Lake, doesn't she?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<447ACC63.C66CC094@aon.at>", "from": { "name": "Georg Schönegger", "address": "g.schoenegger at aon.at" }, "date": "2006-05-29T10:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Piteous Gate - one last rehash", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We're also told that the avern -- an extremely deadly plant -- has been\nplanted by Father Inire to keep manatees out of the Botanic Gardens, but\nthis seems like a rather dire method for keeping out simple sea cows,\nwhereas if they were meant to delimit undines and possibly Abaia...well, it\nseems like a much more effective and logical defense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "maybe this has been brought up before, but: is it sure the manatees were\n'simple see cows'? i had the opposite impression; nearly every mention\nof them refers to their near-human features. i could very well imagine\nthem to be a kind of proto-undines (in earlier times, seamen even called\nthem \"sirenes\").\n\ngeorg" } ] } ] }