Subject: (urth) Piteous Gate- one last rehash

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 03:49:16 +0000

In the vaults of this archinve there has been a fair amount of discussion 
centered on the disturbance at the Piteous Gate that ends Shadow.  I had 
always felt it was something mysterious and worth knowing, as did some 
others. Mantis and Tony Ellis and perhaps others argued vehemently that it 
was merely the action of soldiers blocking the road and I think it was left 
at that.

I found a passage which convinces me otherwise.  When Severian first talks 
to Agia in Casdoe's cottage in Sword, they have this exchange:

S- "You've been trying to kill me ever since I glimpsed you in the crowd at 
Saltus"
A- " Is that an accusation?  Yes."
S- "You're lying."
A- "What do you mean?"
S- "Only that you were trying to kill me before Saltus"
A- "With the avern. Yes, of course"
S- "And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is"

I think this is author misdirection because on first reading I know I was 
then more interested in Severian's extended insight about Hethor.  But the 
first part of that sentence says that Agia (with Hethor's help implied) 
tried to kill Severian somewhere in the time between the avern duel and 
Saltus Fair, which she doesn't deny.

I find no plausible setting for this attempt except the disturbance at the 
Piteous Gate.  So  Severian, in retrospect, has deduced that the cause of 
the disturbance, the appearance of some undescribed creature, was an attempt 
on his life by Agia and Hethor.   Is there another possible interpretation?

-bsharp

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 05:12:13 +0000

By George, I think b's got it.

On 5/14/06, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:
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-- 
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 05:15:12 +0000

>From: "b sharp" <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>
>others.

Agreed, and perhaps exactly what is meant when Severian writes about 
"certain dramatic pauses which shall signal to you that something of import 
is about to occur."

>on his life by Agia and Hethor.   Is there another possible interpretation?

I believe Mr. Lackey has postulated similarly, and while I think it's as 
credible as any other theory, I'm not sure your particular quote bolsters it 
in any fashion. You're assuming, I believe, that "afterward" comes 
relatively soon after the avern episode, whereas I believe it's referring to 
"after" the Saltus fair, when Severian and Jonas are attacked by Hethor's 
notules.

em

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:29:44 +0000

mourningsglory responds-

>I'm not sure your particular quote bolsters that idea in any fashion. 
>You're assuming, I believe, that "afterward" comes relatively soon after 
>the avern episode, whereas I believe it's referring to "after" the Saltus 
>fair, when Severian and Jonas are attacked by Hethor's notules."

I must respectfully disagree that Severian could be refering to events after 
Saltus Fair such as the man-ape cave, the notule attack, the antechamber 
slug and the salamander.  If he were, Severian's and Agia's exchange would 
read, simplified:

Agia:  I've been trying to kill you since the Saltus Fair.
Severian:  Liar, you've been trying to kill me since the Saltus Fair.

Which makes no sense.  He must be refering to an attempt or attempts before 
Saltus Fair but after the avern duel.  I think the only legitimate objection 
to my analysis would be if there was another plausible attempt on Severian's 
life in that time period.  I don't have my books here but the episodes in 
that time frame I remember are:  Severian in the recovery room, Severian 
with Agia and Agilus in his cell, the execution, walking with Dorcas, 
performing the Talos play, packing up the play properties and then walking 
to the Piteous Gate.

The only other candidates for murder attempts in this period I can think of 
are very weak:  1. In the cell, Agia attacks Severian scratching at his 
eyes, and grabbing at his sabretache.  2. Later, as they are walking toward 
the Piteous Gate, Hethor asks if he can carry Severian's sword. I don't 
think it is in Hethor's repertoire to be swinging swords.  But if Hethor 
knows an attack is coming soon, I can see why he would want to take Terminus 
Est from Severian.

Severian phrases his statements in the exchange to knock her off balance (as 
he has physically, a couple times) by calling her a liar after she has told 
the truth.  I think Wolfe's purpose is much the same, to knock his reader 
off balance so the solution to one puzzle (Piteous Gate) is masked by the 
solution to another (the source of the creatures).

-bsharp

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:16:43 +0000

Apologies for dredging this up yet again, but I missed b_sharp's post
when it appeared.

>S- "And afterward. Agia, I know who Hethor is"

<snip> ...the 

>Saltus Fair, which she doesn't deny.

Actually, what that sentence says is that Agia was *trying* to kill
Severian between the avern duel and Saltus Fair, not that she 'tried' to
kill him. Yes, I know, I'm pedantic, but the distinction is crucial,
because 'tried' requires a specific attempt on Severian's life, whereas
'trying' offers rather more leeway. If, for example, last week I hired
an assassin to kill you, then that week I was trying to kill you. 

And this exchange is all about Severian building up to the fact that he
knows Agia hired Hethor to kill him. He's effectively saying: "Agia, I
know you've had a hired killer on my trail since before Saltus."

It's also worth noting that nothing in the way this conversation
continues suggests that anyone thinks Hethor used one of his creatures
at the Piteous Gate. Agia says: "He followed you for me after you killed
Agilus; with his silver I hired the men you killed at the old mine, and
the creatures he commands will kill you for me yet."

Not "He followed you for me and tried to kill you at the Piteous Gate,"
you notice. And the order in which Agia puts these events also makes
sense if Hethor didn't start using his creatures until after Saltus.
Followed. Used silver. Used creatures.

After this, Agia asks Severian how he guessed about Hethor. Severian
proceeds to list all the monster attacks we know of, in order: notules,
slime monster, salamander - explaining how each betrayed a connection to
Hethor. No mention of any monster at the Piteous Gate.

This is precisely my problem with the whole monster-at-the-Gate
argument: why does Severian never mention it? A monster is a pretty big
deal, especially when it's the first one you've ever seen. Why, when
Severian dreams about the Gate at the start of Claw of the Conciliator,
does he remember uhlans but not a monster? Why, when he meets Baldanders
again, does he refer to them getting separated but never say "And wow,
what about that monster in the Gate - that was really something, wasn't
it?" Why, when very other attack by Hethor's creatures gets written up,
is this one omitted?

The fact is, we don't need a monster to explain the disturbance at the
Piteous Gate. If you have a lot of people crushed into a confined space,
that's *all* you need to create a disturbance. If a bunch of armed
guards turn up and start throwing their weight around, then it's just
about inevitable.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:34:22 +0000

I think Tony makes good points in his last post.  He pokes a few holes in 
what I thought was an airtight case.

The problem as I see it is that Tony can't see the holes in his own theory, 
which I believe Roy and others have most eloquently presented (Feb 2006, The 
Piteous Gate).

I think Tony considers his Uhlan explanation so clear and obvious that it 
explains why the incident isn't discussed further in detail.  So that 
satisfies him.

But so many others disagree and feel more explanation is needed.  Severian 
doesn't mention the appearance of a monster or man-ape soldiers swarming 
toward Hethor or the cruel behavior of 5 uhlans who almost got Dorcas killed 
or any explanation whatsoever.  It is always "the incident" or "the 
disturbance".  If we ask "why didn't Severian or anyone else explain the 
incident?" the only sure answer we can make is because Wolfe won't let them 
(or per Tony, Wolfe doesn't see any need).

To me it is like seeing a blacked out portion on a page of text.  We can 
dismiss it as nothing, just part of the text. Or we can deduce that someone 
blacked it out on purpose, wonder about the purpose and wonder what was 
erased.

If Wolfe is true to form on this mystery, there is one big, fat hint hiding 
somewhere in the text, out of context, and a lot of small vague hints. I 
guess if we can't find it then Tony might be right.

-bsharp
Perhaps if it can't be found, then Tony is right.

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:30:45 +0000

Mr. Ellis' counterfactual to the Hethorgate Theory is excellent and I hope 
that he will consent to its points being incorporated into the Piteous Gate 
summation should the wiki ever come to pass.

But now for my own belated attempt at solving the mystery -- one semi-based 
on an already extant theory.

Would a sighting of an undine in the river Gyoll be enough to sally the 
Autarch's troops, both within the wall and without?

I've been doing a lot of background reading on undines given the recent 
spate of posts about them, and one of things I learned about Juturna is that 
"After successfully keeping her brother Turnus away from Aeneas, who she 
knew was ordained to kill him in single combat, Juturna, who had disguised 
herself as his charioteer Metiscus and *had restored to him his lost sword 
made by Vulcan,* was compelled by the warning of a Fury (sent by Jupiter) to 
give up the struggle to save her brother, and sank lamenting into her spring 
at Lanuvium." [From _Who's Who in Classical Mythology_]. Now if Wolfe is 
staying true to the model, this means that it's Juturna who's returning 
Terminus Est to Severian when he falls into the Lake of Birds ("it seemed 
the hand's owner was returning my property to me") -- just as Severian will 
return the broken pieces of TE at the end of _Sword_ to Lake Diuturna, which 
as has been recently pointed out is an alternate name for Juturna.

We're also told that the avern -- an extremely deadly plant -- has been 
planted by Father Inire to keep manatees out of the Botanic Gardens, but 
this seems like a rather dire method for keeping out simple sea cows, 
whereas if they were meant to delimit undines and possibly Abaia...well, it 
seems like a much more effective and logical defense.

Also: since the undines experience time backwards, and their past is our 
future, could the incident at the Piteous Gate be caused by Juturna entering 
Nessus by the river conduit, on her way to retrieve Terminus Est for 
Severian -- an event for him which has already taken place, but which for 
her looms on a different temporal horizon?

mourning s glory

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From: Thomas Bitterman <tom at bitterman.net>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 01:37:44 +0000

mournings glory wrote:
> whereas if they were meant to delimit undines
gigantic underwater women == sea cows.  Father Inire has a droll sense 
of humor.

enamel

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:15:55 +0000

>Autarch's troops, both within the wall and without?

The main problem with this theory (as with the Borski version you allude to)
is one of logistics. I know of no river conduit anywhere near the Piteous
Gate. It required an afternoon's walk from the Botanic Gardens to reach the
Inn of Lost Loves, which was near the Sanguinary Field. The Field itself was
still "leagues" away from the Wall. The military compound where Severian was
taken after the duel is on one side of the Field. After leaving the
barracks, Severian and Dorcas had to walk for some time before they found
Talos and his troupe. The next morning they had to walk some unspecified
amount of time before they caught sight of the road and the gate, which was
still "half a league" away. Best I can tell, the Gate was many miles away
from Gyoll.

-Roy

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 18:30:53 +0000

mournings glory's theory on the incident at Piteous Gate is a good one.

Could the extant theory it is semi-based be Borski's idea that Baldanders 
mates with Juturna shortly after the group separation at the gate, thus 
giving him his underwater breathing ability?  Hildegrin calls it "the affair 
at the gate".  Watching Baldanders and Juturna mate might make me run away 
screaming also ;-).

I think Maxellindas' uncle makes reference to the undines in relation to 
manatees (and let's not forget nixies!) so I've long thought the averns were 
to keep out undines.  How does Juturna get past the averns?  I like the idea 
that it isn't Dorcas returning his sword.  And, in Arthurian terms, Juturna 
(Diuturna) makes a very nice Lady Of The Lake, doesn't she?

-bsharp

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From: Georg Schönegger <g.schoenegger at aon.at>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:26:43 +0000

> seems like a much more effective and logical defense.

maybe this has been brought up before, but: is it sure the manatees were
'simple see cows'? i had the opposite impression; nearly every mention
of them refers to their near-human features. i could very well imagine
them to be a kind of proto-undines (in earlier times, seamen even called
them "sirenes").

georg