{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4593", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4593, "subject": "golden Severa etc.", "messages": 14, "voices": 9, "first": "2006-05-15T19:39:02+00:00", "last": "2006-06-01T22:46:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-15T19:39:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, let me open another can of worms regarding physical attributes. \nRobert Borski notes (and has published) that Severian's family may be \nidentified by their golden attributes denoting the New Sun, (and also \nSeverian-Savior stigmata, i.e cheek injuries and limping). If so, should \nnot red haired characters be associated with the old, dying sun in some way?\n\nDorcas is perhaps the most golden, with gold hair and gold flecks in her \nskin (+ cheek injury) and is, ostensibly, Sev's grandmother. Contrast this \nto Eata with similar features who is described as tow-headed and freckled \nsans gold.\n\nAgia and Agilus have pale gold skin and aureate faces and hair when the sun \nhits them and are suggested to be Sev's cousins. (Agia limps for a time but \nI think it is feigned). Contrast this to Pia who is described as having \nskin the color of a brass serving tray. Like gold color but not really.\n\nBorski addresses the issue of the missing sister, Severa. He discards the \noften promoted candidate Merryn, and other lesser candidates such as \nMorwenna, the Mandragora and Thais. These are seen as red herring Severas \nderived from false clues. His candidates are Jolenta, with her red-gold \nhair (and clumsy walk) and the kaibit/prostitute Barbea who has hair like \nspun gold (though she dances nicely) with the suggestion these two are, in \nfact the same person.\n\nBut I think the text suggests these two are also false gold. Barbea's hair \nis twice referred to as a possible wig (the next young woman's hair/wig is \nwhite). And Jolenta's hair has been dyed (red?) and had silk threads added \n(gold?). It is hard to think that her original \"straggling\" hair was either \nof those striking colors. Moreover, I expect Severa to be somewhat \nintelligent and philosophical and as both Severian and Dorcas (and even \nAgia/Agilus to a degree) are. Jolenta calls the Pellerines \"Pelisses\" and \nher deepest thoughts seem to be on how to procure pampering and \ncontemplation of the autarch's urine as the wine of his subjects.\n\nNow by rights, if I am to undercut someone's candidate I should propose my \nown. Unfortunately I am still working on that as piece of a larger puzzle, \nbut I will present it when ready.\n\n\nIn its stead I'll hint that Borski has missed a character who is decribed in \nunequivocally golden terms. He has several pieces of gold jewelry and \ngolden hair (and blue eyes). Follow-up in my next post.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-15T20:47:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"b sharp\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Borski addresses the issue of the missing sister, Severa. He discards the\noften promoted candidate Merryn, and other lesser candidates such as\nMorwenna, the Mandragora and Thais." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the longest time I was an advocate of the Morwenna-as-Severa theory and \nhave posted so before, but on my last read through I concluded she was more \nlikely related to Manahen and his father, both herdsmen -- as Severian tells \nus Morwenna's father is. Plus there's the Morwenna-Manahen cryptonym pair.\n\n(Lots of these the aforementioned author missed, perhaps the most salient of \nwhich is alzabo/abo.)\n\nJolenta I'm still thinking about. She's been completely transmogrifed from \nwaitress to diva, so she may not be so much dumb as full of herself -- plus \nif she's modeled on Marilyn Monroe, who was actually quite smart, she might \njust be enacting a stereotype. But I've also found two other items of \nsupport that I don't believe anyone, including Mr. Borski, has mentioned \nbefore.\n\nOne comes from the play, Eschatology and Genesis. At one point the \nInquisitor tells the Familiar, \"Bring in the woman said to be a witch, \nBrother.\" To which the Familiar responds, \"The Contessa waits outside, and \nas she is of exalted blood, and a favorite of our sovereign's, I beg you to \nsee her first.\" Indeed, the Contessa -- played by Jolenta -- is presented \nfirst, but if she really is Severa the Inquisitor's command has actually \nbeen obeyed, if ironically so.\n\nThen there's a passage about Agia and Agilus, and following the latter's \nexecution:\n\n\"From far away came a scream, Agia's voice as unmistable as *a face seen by \nlightning.* Something in its timbre made me feel she had not been watching \nat all, but had known nevertheless when her twin died.\"\n\nNow compare this to Severian's description of Jolenta after the events in \nthe stone town:\n\n\"Our mounts were gone. On the roof, so were the witches; Dorcas, alone, bent \nover the body of Jolenta. *By lightning, I saw the dead face* of the \nwaitress who had served Dr. Talos, Baldanders, and me in the café in \nNessus.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In its stead I'll hint that Borski has missed a character who is decribed \nin\nunequivocally golden terms. He has several pieces of gold jewelry and\ngolden hair (and blue eyes). Follow-up in my next post." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gold jewelrey might be more of an accoutrement than gold hair; I believe \nit's Dr. Talos -- who obviously could not be a relative -- also carried a \ngold walking stick. And you don't mean blond, as opposed to gold, do you? \nNow you've got my curiosity up...\n\nem (who wonders how Marilyn Monroe, with a six-toed foot, did the \"This \nlittle piggy went to the market\" bit.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01c6793a$5756acc0$693ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-16T22:44:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nIn its stead I'll hint that Borski has missed a character who is decribed\nin\nunequivocally golden terms. He has several pieces of gold jewelry and\ngolden hair (and blue eyes). Follow-up in my next post." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in a follow-up post, b sharp wrote:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, once you have created a zygote/embryo/homunculus, you need a place\nfor\nit to grow. Thus, perhaps we can determine the use of the eviscerated Pia\nlook-alike in Baldander's lab. And what homunculus did Baldanders recently\ngrow there?\n\nIn Baldander's bedchamber, Severian encounters a giant baby catamite (boy\nsex object of a pedophile). If there is doubt on whether there is sexual\nintention, the baby's gold jewelry, the rich red bedding and the mirror on\nthe ceiling should leave no doubt.\n\nPedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence. Baldanders had recently been in close contact with a person\nrepeatedly described as innocent looking, the only other character (along\nwith the catamite) to have golden hair and blue eyes. But perhaps just a\nbit too feminine for Baldy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nJust for the record, Robert did not miss the giant baby in the castle. In\nfact, his discussion of that child forms the concluding section of the\nchapter \"Swimming With Undines\", in SOLAR LABYRINTH. From page 135, after\nquoting the physical description in SWORD:\n\n\"Of signal importance here is the color of the child's hair -- i.e., _gold_.\nAs I argue in _Severa_ and _Agia and Agilus_, Wolfe very circumspectly uses\nthis attribute _only in conjunction with people related to Severian by\nblood_. I'd therefore like to speculate that the giant child Severian finds\nin Baldanders' bedchamber is _his_.\" [italics in original]\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10605162300.AA06067@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-05-16T23:00:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<001d01c6793a$5756acc0$693ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just\nhas me floored. Where did this idea come from? How could anyone possibly\nknow? What does \"often\" mean? Would these pedophiles be attracted to\nadults if they seemed especially innocent?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<446AD33C.4010606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T07:39:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<10605162300.AA06067@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David DiGiacomo wrote:\nPedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just\nhas me floored. Where did this idea come from? How could anyone possibly\nknow? What does \"often\" mean? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedophilia has been studied and profiled the same way most criminal \npathologies have been. \"Often\" here means a behavior shared by a \nsignificant portion of the group studied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would these pedophiles be attracted to\nadults if they seemed especially innocent?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like Dorcas? Possibly, but not necessarily." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10605170750.AA12167@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T07:50:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<446AD33C.4010606@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Pedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just\nhas me floored. Where did this idea come from? How could anyone possibly\nknow? What does \"often\" mean? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedophilia has been studied and profiled the same way most criminal \npathologies have been. \"Often\" here means a behavior shared by a \nsignificant portion of the group studied." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but this statement is about motivation, not behavior.\n\nAs I said, how could anyone know?\n\nWhat external evidence could possibly validate the assertion?\n\nIf a pedophile described his motivation, even if you believed he was\nhonest, what use would it be? Introspection can't explain biology." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T12:05:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<10605170750.AA12167@slack.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks (once again) to Roy for the correction. As a new guy, I really do \nappreciate them. Robert Borski didn't miss the catamite as I thought. Sorry \nI don't have Solar Labyrinth here to check but the explanation for the \ncatamite you cite from him is hard to swallow:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd therefore like to speculate that the giant child Severian finds\nin Baldanders' bedchamber is _his_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Its been a few months since Baldanders and Severian parted. How was there \ntime for a Severian fathered baby to gestate and be born? Who was the mother \n(Dorcas or Jolenta or Juturna or ?)? How did Baldanders get control of this \nbaby? Isn't obtaining a few cells from Dorcas a more plausible scenario?\n\nRegarding the question of pedophile psychology posed by David DiGiacoma, I \napologize. I spent several years of my life working as a counselor for sex \noffenders in a correctional facility. This experience surely makes me \nforget that some acknowleged principles of this field are not common \nknowledge. As a brief thumbnail summary I'll note that predatory, violent \nsex offenders tend to prefer any helpless victim they can control and hurt \nwhile non-violent sex offenders tend to prefer the innocence of children and \ngentle, non-violent means of persuasion.\n\nMy experience was in the midwest USA. A quick Google search provided this \npassage from a pedophile study in England which agrees with my previous \nexperience in this field. (it is an interesting article- \nhttp://www.mhamic.org/sources/wilson&cox.htm):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this study, subjects were asked to describe the characteristics they \nfound attractive in children. >They cited personality traits slightly more \noften than physical traits. Personality traits included >openness, \ncuriosity, spontaneity, enthusiasm, lack of inhibition, innocence, honesty, \nand affection. >Physical traits included good looks, smooth skin, \nattractive eyes, slim stature, and lack of pubic hair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wouldn't Dorcas fit most of those traits? Dr. Talos calls her Innocence and \nsays he prefers her over Jolenta. Hm..\n\nThe inspiration for Jolenta has been postulated to be Marilyn Monroe. I \nwould like to propose another semi-serious possiblity (and please excuse my \nirreverence) that being Gilligan's Island. Is this a tv show known outside \nthe USA? The time frame is right for a Wolfe inspiration.....\n\nOn this island we have two castaway women: 1. Tall, busty, jeweled, painted, \nvain, selfish, manipulative, stupid, red headed actress Ginger. 2. Smaller, \nsweet, innocent and ultimately more desireable Mary Ann (okay, dark haired \nbut otherwise..). I really do think the Ginger-Jolenta similarity is \nstriking.\n\nSo Sev is Gilligan, the Skipper is Baldanders and...sorry, sorry, nevermind \n;).\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T16:10:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the muscially-gifted b sharp:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks (once again) to Roy for the correction. As a new guy, I really do\nappreciate them. Robert Borski didn't miss the catamite as I thought. \nSorry\nI don't have Solar Labyrinth here to check but the explanation for the\ncatamite you cite from him is hard to swallow.\n\nIts been a few months since Baldanders and Severian parted. How was there\ntime for a Severian fathered baby to gestate and be born? Who was the \nmother\n(Dorcas or Jolenta or Juturna or ?)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The theory, as I understand it, posits Juturna as mother. As an undine she \nhas mastery over time, so neither the baby's age nor size needs to be \naccounted for. In regards to the latter Baldander tells us that he has \n\"labored three liftetimes\" to get to his present size; accelerating growth, \nwhether one's own or a baby's, therefore seems problematic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From finagain, not gilligan:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, but\nI always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia -- and \nas\nsuch, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I had already concluded,\" says Sev, \"that when the islanders told me of a \nsmall man who paid for the building of this place, they were speaking of the \ndoctor. But they said that you, the giant, had come afterward.''\n\n\"I was the small man,\" admits Baldanders. \"The doctor came afterward.\"\n\nHence Baldanders (note the German name) is both Dr. Frankenstein *and* his \nmonster -- a fact alluded to by Dr. Talos in his \"The castle? The monster? \nThe man of learning?\" speech, found in Chapter XXXV of -Sword_.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605171020h68f552bdyd50eecaed1ba9fb8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T17:20:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<10605170750.AA12167@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 5/17/06, David DiGiacomo wrote:\nPedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just\nhas me floored. Where did this idea come from? How could anyone possibly\nknow? What does \"often\" mean?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pedophilia has been studied and profiled the same way most criminal\npathologies have been. \"Often\" here means a behavior shared by a\nsignificant portion of the group studied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but this statement is about motivation, not behavior.\n\nAs I said, how could anyone know?\n\nWhat external evidence could possibly validate the assertion?\n\nIf a pedophile described his motivation, even if you believed he was\nhonest, what use would it be? Introspection can't explain biology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where to begin ...\n\nFirst of all, pedophilia, unlike gayosity, does _not_ appear to be\nsignificantly biological in origin. (Twin studies, etc.)\n\nSecond, you seem to be taking an extreme behaviorist position,\nwhich I think is pretty much outmoded.\n\nThird ... it is certainly possible to study the type of children\nmore victimized by pedophiles and create an \"ideal victim\"\nprofile that exemplifies the characteristics a pedophile seeks\nin a child. And, while \"innocence\" is not an observable\ncharacteristic, certain physical, social, and behavioral\nfeatures that tend to be perceived as \"innocence\" _are_.\nSome of these are simply typical of children; others,\nsuch as mode of dress, manner of speech, reaction to\nstrangers, etc., vary greatly from child to child.\n\nIf -- and I have _not_ studied work on pedophilia, so I am\nspeculating here -- such characteristics proved to be\nparticularly attractive to pedophiles then it woudl be\nreasonable to say that \"Pedophiles are often attracted to\nchildren because of their perceived innocence.\"\n\nNote that in no way am I asserting that the original\nstatement is \"true.\" I'm merely pointing out that \"how could\nanyone know\" has a meaningful answer, though I have no\npersonal knowledge of whether the methodology I sketch\nhas in fact been followed.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8319507C-E503-44E1-87F6-960FBE6F72E5@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T18:38:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 17, 2006, at 11:10 AM, mournings glory wrote:\nThe theory, as I understand it, posits Juturna as mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note also that Baldander's castle is on Lake Diuturna. Diuturna is \nan archaic form of Juturna. Juturna is the goddess of springs and \nwells.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-05-17T21:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 17 May 2006, b sharp wrote:\nThe inspiration for Jolenta has been postulated to be Marilyn Monroe. I\nwould like to propose another semi-serious possiblity (and please excuse my\nirreverence) that being Gilligan's Island. Is this a tv show known outside\nthe USA? The time frame is right for a Wolfe inspiration.....\n\nOn this island we have two castaway women: 1. Tall, busty, jeweled, painted,\nvain, selfish, manipulative, stupid, red headed actress Ginger. 2. Smaller,\nsweet, innocent and ultimately more desireable Mary Ann (okay, dark haired\nbut otherwise..). I really do think the Ginger-Jolenta similarity is\nstriking.\n\nSo Sev is Gilligan, the Skipper is Baldanders and...sorry, sorry, nevermind\n;)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you read through the archives (somewhere in 1999), you will find\nGilligan's Island has previously come up, in a sterling example of\npractical hermeneutics...\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<446D4D2D.3020103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T04:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<10605170750.AA12167@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David DiGiacomo wrote:\nPedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just\nhas me floored. Where did this idea come from? How could anyone possibly\nknow? What does \"often\" mean? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pedophilia has been studied and profiled the same way most criminal \npathologies have been. \"Often\" here means a behavior shared by a \nsignificant portion of the group studied." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but this statement is about motivation, not behavior.\n\nAs I said, how could anyone know?\n\nWhat external evidence could possibly validate the assertion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interviews of many unassociated pedos over time and space. It's unlikely \nthey would come up with the same fanciful answer enough times to be \nstatistically signifigant for no reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If a pedophile described his motivation, even if you believed he was\nhonest, what use would it be? Introspection can't explain biology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently, it's useful for writing stories." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10605190559.AA08977@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T05:59:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<446D4D2D.3020103@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Sorry if no one else is interested in this admittedly off-topic\ndiscussion.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: jwilson at io.com (Jeff Wilson)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What external evidence could possibly validate the assertion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interviews of many unassociated pedos over time and space. It's unlikely \nthey would come up with the same fanciful answer enough times to be \nstatistically signifigant for no reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a valid point if true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If a pedophile described his motivation, even if you believed he was\nhonest, what use would it be? Introspection can't explain biology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apparently, it's useful for writing stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a second, I missed something - are you saying that Wolfe used this\nidea of innocence in describing Baldanders's catamite? How exactly?\n\nAlso, I was struck by this \"wilson&cox\" quote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this study, subjects were asked to describe the characteristics they \nfound attractive in children. They cited personality traits slightly more \noften than physical traits. Personality traits included openness, \ncuriosity, spontaneity, enthusiasm, lack of inhibition, innocence, honesty, \nand affection. Physical traits included good looks, smooth skin, \nattractive eyes, slim stature, and lack of pubic hair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These traits are just our societal norms of attractiveness. They are\nnot unique to children." } ] }, { "message_id": "<61836.67.137.156.200.1149202013.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2006-06-01T22:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) golden Severa etc.", "in_reply_to": "<10605162300.AA06067@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived\ninnocence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just\nhas me floored. Where did this idea come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedophiles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " How could anyone possibly\nknow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to be under the impression that pedophiles are unable to\ncommunicate their thoughts and feelings.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }