Subject: (urth) golden Severa etc.

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:39:02 +0000

Well, let me open another can of worms regarding physical attributes.  
Robert Borski notes (and has published) that Severian's family may be 
identified by their golden attributes denoting the New Sun, (and also 
Severian-Savior stigmata, i.e  cheek injuries and limping). If so, should 
not red haired characters be associated with the old, dying sun in some way?

Dorcas is perhaps the most golden, with gold hair and gold flecks in her 
skin (+ cheek injury) and is, ostensibly, Sev's grandmother. Contrast this 
to Eata with similar features who is described  as tow-headed and freckled 
sans gold.

Agia and Agilus have pale gold skin and aureate faces and hair when the sun 
hits them and are suggested to be Sev's cousins. (Agia limps for a time but 
I think it is feigned).  Contrast this to Pia who is described as having 
skin the color of a brass serving tray. Like gold color but not really.

Borski addresses the issue of the missing sister, Severa.  He discards the 
often promoted candidate Merryn, and other lesser candidates such as 
Morwenna, the Mandragora and Thais.  These are seen as red herring Severas 
derived from false clues.  His candidates are Jolenta, with her red-gold 
hair (and clumsy walk) and the kaibit/prostitute Barbea who has hair like 
spun gold (though she dances nicely) with the suggestion these two are, in 
fact the same person.

But I think the text suggests these two are also false gold.  Barbea's hair 
is twice referred to as a possible wig (the next young woman's hair/wig is 
white). And Jolenta's hair has been dyed (red?) and had silk threads added 
(gold?).  It is hard to think that her original "straggling" hair was either 
of those striking colors.  Moreover, I expect Severa to be somewhat 
intelligent and philosophical and  as both Severian and Dorcas (and even 
Agia/Agilus to a degree) are.  Jolenta calls the Pellerines "Pelisses" and 
her deepest thoughts seem to be on how to procure pampering and 
contemplation of the autarch's urine as the wine of his subjects.

Now by rights, if I am to undercut someone's candidate I should propose my 
own.  Unfortunately I am still working on that as piece of a larger puzzle, 
but I will present it when ready.

In its stead I'll hint that Borski has missed a character who is decribed in 
unequivocally golden terms.  He has several pieces of gold jewelry and 
golden hair (and blue eyes).  Follow-up in my next post.

-bsharp

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From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:47:10 +0000

>Morwenna, the Mandragora and Thais.

For the longest time I was an advocate of the Morwenna-as-Severa theory and 
have posted so before, but on my last read through I concluded she was more 
likely related to Manahen and his father, both herdsmen -- as Severian tells 
us Morwenna's father is. Plus there's the Morwenna-Manahen cryptonym pair.

(Lots of these the aforementioned author missed, perhaps the most salient of 
which is alzabo/abo.)

Jolenta I'm still thinking about. She's been completely transmogrifed from 
waitress to diva, so she may not be so much dumb as full of herself -- plus 
if she's modeled on Marilyn Monroe, who was actually quite smart, she might 
just be enacting a stereotype. But I've also found two other items of 
support that I don't believe anyone, including Mr. Borski, has mentioned 
before.

One comes from the play, Eschatology and Genesis. At one point the 
Inquisitor tells the Familiar, "Bring in the woman said to be a witch, 
Brother." To which the Familiar responds, "The Contessa waits outside, and 
as she is of exalted blood, and a favorite of our sovereign's, I beg you to 
see her first." Indeed, the Contessa -- played by Jolenta -- is presented 
first, but if she really is Severa the Inquisitor's command has actually 
been obeyed, if ironically so.

Then there's a passage about Agia and Agilus, and following the latter's 
execution:

"From far away came a scream, Agia's voice as unmistable as *a face seen by 
lightning.* Something in its timbre made me feel she had not been watching 
at all, but had known nevertheless when her twin died."

Now compare this to Severian's description of Jolenta after the events in 
the stone town:

"Our mounts were gone. On the roof, so were the witches; Dorcas, alone, bent 
over the body of Jolenta. *By lightning, I saw the dead face* of the 
waitress who had served Dr. Talos, Baldanders, and me in the café in 
Nessus."

>golden hair (and blue eyes).  Follow-up in my next post.

Gold jewelrey might be more of an accoutrement than gold hair; I believe 
it's Dr. Talos -- who obviously could not be a relative -- also carried a 
gold walking stick. And you don't mean blond, as opposed to gold, do you? 
Now you've got my curiosity up...

em (who wonders how Marilyn Monroe, with a six-toed foot, did the "This 
little piggy went to the market" bit.)

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:44:31 +0000

>golden hair (and blue eyes).  Follow-up in my next post.

And in a follow-up post, b sharp wrote:

[snip]
>Well, once you have created a zygote/embryo/homunculus, you need a place
for
>it to grow.  Thus, perhaps we can determine the use of the eviscerated Pia
>look-alike in Baldander's lab.  And what homunculus did Baldanders recently
>grow there?
>
>In Baldander's bedchamber, Severian encounters a giant baby catamite (boy
>sex object of a pedophile).  If there is doubt on whether there is sexual
>intention, the baby's gold jewelry, the rich red bedding and the mirror on
>the ceiling should leave no doubt.
>
>Pedophiles are often attracted to children because of their perceived
>innocence.  Baldanders had recently been in close contact with a person
>repeatedly described as innocent looking, the only other character (along
>with the catamite) to have golden hair and blue eyes.  But perhaps just a
>bit too feminine for Baldy.
[snip]

Just for the record, Robert did not miss the giant baby in the castle. In
fact, his discussion of that child forms the concluding section of the
chapter "Swimming With Undines", in SOLAR LABYRINTH. From page 135, after
quoting the physical description in SWORD:

"Of signal importance here is the color of the child's hair -- i.e., _gold_.
As I argue in _Severa_ and _Agia and Agilus_, Wolfe very circumspectly uses
this attribute _only in conjunction with people related to Severian by
blood_. I'd therefore like to speculate that the giant child Severian finds
in Baldanders' bedchamber is _his_." [italics in original]

-Roy

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:00:35 +0000

>innocence.

I know this is not really relevant to Wolfe, but... this assertion just
has me floored.  Where did this idea come from?  How could anyone possibly
know?  What does "often" mean?  Would these pedophiles be attracted to
adults if they seemed especially innocent?

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:39:40 +0000

David DiGiacomo wrote:

> know?  What does "often" mean?  

Pedophilia has been studied and profiled the same way most criminal 
pathologies have been. "Often" here means a behavior shared by a 
significant portion of the group studied.

 > Would these pedophiles be attracted to

Like Dorcas? Possibly, but not necessarily.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:50:13 +0000

>significant portion of the group studied.

Yes, but this statement is about motivation, not behavior.

As I said, how could anyone know?

What external evidence could possibly validate the assertion?

If a pedophile described his motivation, even if you believed he was
honest, what use would it be?  Introspection can't explain biology.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:05:58 +0000

Thanks (once again) to Roy for the correction. As a new guy, I really do 
appreciate them.  Robert Borski didn't miss the catamite as I thought. Sorry 
I don't have Solar Labyrinth here to check but the explanation for the 
catamite you cite from him  is hard to swallow:

>I'd therefore like to speculate that the giant child Severian finds
>in Baldanders' bedchamber is _his_.

Its been a few months since Baldanders and Severian parted. How was there 
time for a Severian fathered baby to gestate and be born? Who was the mother 
(Dorcas or Jolenta or Juturna or ?)?  How did Baldanders get control of this 
baby?  Isn't obtaining a few cells from Dorcas a more plausible scenario?

Regarding the question of pedophile psychology posed by David DiGiacoma, I 
apologize.  I spent several years of my life working as a counselor for sex 
offenders in a correctional facility.  This experience surely makes me 
forget that some acknowleged principles of this field are not common 
knowledge.  As a brief thumbnail summary I'll note that predatory, violent 
sex offenders tend to prefer any helpless victim they can control and hurt 
while non-violent sex offenders tend to prefer the innocence of children and 
gentle, non-violent means of persuasion.

My experience was in the midwest USA.  A quick Google search provided this 
passage from a pedophile study in England which agrees with my previous 
experience in this field. (it is an interesting article- 
http://www.mhamic.org/sources/wilson&cox.htm):

>In this study, subjects were asked to describe the characteristics they 
>found attractive in children. >They cited personality traits slightly more 
>often than physical traits. Personality traits included >openness, 
>curiosity, spontaneity, enthusiasm, lack of inhibition, innocence, honesty, 
>and affection. >Physical traits included good looks, smooth skin, 
>attractive eyes, slim stature, and lack of pubic hair.

Wouldn't Dorcas fit most of those traits?  Dr. Talos calls her Innocence and 
says he prefers her over Jolenta. Hm..

The inspiration for Jolenta has been postulated to be Marilyn Monroe.  I 
would like to propose another semi-serious possiblity (and please excuse my 
irreverence) that being Gilligan's Island.  Is this a tv show known outside 
the USA? The time frame is right for a Wolfe inspiration.....

On this island we have two castaway women: 1. Tall, busty, jeweled, painted, 
vain, selfish, manipulative, stupid, red headed actress Ginger. 2. Smaller, 
sweet, innocent and ultimately more desireable Mary Ann (okay, dark haired 
but otherwise..).  I really do think the Ginger-Jolenta similarity is 
striking.

So Sev is Gilligan, the Skipper is Baldanders and...sorry, sorry, nevermind 
;).

-bsharp

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:10:29 +0000

>>From the muscially-gifted b sharp:

>catamite you cite from him  is hard to swallow.
>
>(Dorcas or Jolenta or Juturna or ?)?

The theory, as I understand it, posits Juturna as mother. As an undine she 
has mastery over time, so neither the baby's age nor size needs to be 
accounted for. In regards to the latter Baldander tells us that he has 
"labored three liftetimes" to get to his present size; accelerating growth, 
whether one's own or a baby's, therefore seems problematic.

>>From finagain, not gilligan:

>Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, but
>I always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia -- and 
>as
>such, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth

"I had already concluded," says Sev, "that when the islanders told me of a 
small man who paid for the building of this place, they were speaking of the 
doctor. But they said that you, the giant, had come afterward.''

"I was the small man," admits Baldanders. "The doctor came afterward."

Hence Baldanders (note the German name) is both Dr. Frankenstein *and* his 
monster -- a fact alluded to by Dr. Talos in his "The castle? The monster? 
The man of learning?" speech, found in Chapter XXXV of -Sword_.

msg

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:20:29 +0000

> honest, what use would it be?  Introspection can't explain biology.

Where to begin ...

First of all, pedophilia, unlike gayosity, does _not_ appear to be
significantly biological in origin. (Twin studies, etc.)

Second, you seem to be taking an extreme behaviorist position,
which I think is pretty much outmoded.

Third ... it is certainly possible to study the type of children
more victimized by pedophiles and create an "ideal victim"
profile that exemplifies the characteristics a pedophile seeks
in a child. And, while "innocence" is not an observable
characteristic, certain physical, social, and behavioral
features that tend to be perceived as "innocence" _are_.
Some of these are simply typical of children; others,
such as mode of dress, manner of speech, reaction to
strangers, etc., vary greatly from child to child.

If -- and I have _not_ studied work on pedophilia, so I am
speculating here -- such characteristics proved to be
particularly attractive to pedophiles then it woudl be
reasonable to say that "Pedophiles are often attracted to
children because of their perceived innocence."

Note that in no way am I asserting that the original
statement is "true." I'm merely pointing out that "how could
anyone know" has a meaningful answer, though I have no
personal knowledge of whether the methodology I sketch
has in fact been followed.

--Dan'l

-- 
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:38:15 +0000

On May 17, 2006, at 11:10 AM, mournings glory wrote:
> The theory, as I understand it, posits Juturna as mother.

Note also that Baldander's castle is on Lake Diuturna.  Diuturna is  
an archaic form of Juturna.  Juturna is the goddess of springs and  
wells.

Adam

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:29:59 +0000

> So Sev is Gilligan, the Skipper is Baldanders and...sorry, sorry, nevermind

If you read through the archives (somewhere in 1999), you will find
Gilligan's Island has previously come up, in a sterling example of
practical hermeneutics...

David Duffy.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 04:44:29 +0000

> What external evidence could possibly validate the assertion?

Interviews of many unassociated pedos over time and space. It's unlikely 
they would come up with the same fanciful answer enough times to be 
statistically signifigant for no reason.

> honest, what use would it be?  Introspection can't explain biology.

Apparently, it's useful for writing stories.

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 05:59:37 +0000

(Sorry if no one else is interested in this admittedly off-topic
discussion.)

>From: jwilson at io.com (Jeff Wilson)

That's a valid point if true.

>Apparently, it's useful for writing stories.

Wait a second, I missed something - are you saying that Wolfe used this
idea of innocence in describing Baldanders's catamite?  How exactly?

Also, I was struck by this "wilson&cox" quote:

>found attractive in children. They cited personality traits slightly more 
>often than physical traits. Personality traits included openness, 
>and affection. Physical traits included good looks, smooth skin, 

These traits are just our societal norms of attractiveness.  They are
not unique to children.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:46:53 +0000

> has me floored.  Where did this idea come from?

Pedophiles.

>                                             How could anyone possibly
> know?

You seem to be under the impression that pedophiles are unable to
communicate their thoughts and feelings.

.