{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4596", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4596, "subject": "Baldanders", "messages": 31, "voices": 14, "first": "2006-05-17T09:32:54+00:00", "last": "2006-05-19T07:55:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Machin", "address": "jfmachin at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T09:32:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the \nlist, doing other web searches and reading Solar Labyrinth, I'm still at a \nloss as to what or who Baldanders is. The general assumption is that he is \nsomehow related to the undines, but this is just as assumption (I think?) \nand there are other obvious possibilities (genetic modification, mutation, \nextrasolarian blood etc), but none are clearly indicated by Wolfe (and if \nI'm wrong about this please put me right). To my reading of BotNS, more so \nthan any other character, Baldanders' origins and motivations remain \nprofoundly mysterious. The only thing that really seems clear by the end of \nSword is that he is at best morally ambiguous and at worse a monster. In a \nbook full of characters whose purposes and even identities are obscure at \nbest, he seems the most unreadable and, perhaps because of this, one of the \nmost compelling. If anyone can shed any light on the matter for me, I'd be \nmost appreciative!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10605171431.AA02336@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T14:31:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the \nlist, doing other web searches and reading Solar Labyrinth, I'm still at a \nloss as to what or who Baldanders is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that he is a human who modified himself to extend his life\n(through the SFnal mechanism of unending growth). Otherwise he would not\nbe a candidate for Autarch/epitome." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060517145657.41416.qmail@web51114.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T14:56:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<10605171431.AA02336@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. And I would argue that, as a candidate for epitome of Earth, Baldanders represented the Earth-that-was-punished with a black hole: mankind as amoral exploiter of nature and enslaver of fellow man. In fact, the contrast presented when the heirodules bow down to Sev instead of Baldanders is pretty momentus foreshadowing because it ties so many inferences together, ie. that (a) Sev will be epitome of Earth; (b) Sev represents a different mankind than Baldanders; (c) judging by Baldanders' example (\"human under glass, anyone?\") that version is a kinder, gentler, more noble one; and (d) as such, he will succeed in expiating Man's sins and bringing the New Sun. Baldanders is a would-be Typhon -- his self-alteration is just one more clue tying the two together.\n\nFinally, I think there's also something to be found in the fact that Baldanders starts off as a very small man who grows to bloated size as the result of his depradations against his fellow man -- it suggests Napoleon, which if intentional can be read as a symbol of mankind's conquering arrogance. And is it any coincidence that Wolfe simultaneously casts Baldanders as the freak in a travelling road show (and one watched with dismay and amusement by the heirodules at the House Absolute)?\n\nMacronaut\n\nDavid DiGiacomo wrote: >Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "list, doing other web searches and reading Solar Labyrinth, I'm still at a \nloss as to what or who Baldanders is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that he is a human who modified himself to extend his life\n(through the SFnal mechanism of unending growth). Otherwise he would not\nbe a candidate for Autarch/epitome." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10605170816r1891d400yac0739702511d5a2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T15:16:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<20060517145657.41416.qmail@web51114.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, but\nI always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia -- and as\nsuch, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth. Obviously,\nthat could be wrong, but I can't recall a single indication that he was\noriginally a human being. Quite the opposite -- it seems like Wolfe takes\ngreat pains to show us that Baldanders is something very \"other.\"\n\nThe things ya learn on this list...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/06, Macronaut wrote:\n\nI agree. And I would argue that, as a candidate for epitome of Earth,\nBaldanders represented the Earth-that-was-punished with a black hole:\nmankind as amoral exploiter of nature and enslaver of fellow man. In fact,\nthe contrast presented when the heirodules bow down to Sev instead of\nBaldanders is pretty momentus foreshadowing because it ties so many\ninferences together, ie. that (a) Sev will be epitome of Earth; (b) Sev\nrepresents a different mankind than Baldanders; (c) judging by Baldanders'\nexample (\"human under glass, anyone?\") that version is a kinder, gentler,\nmore noble one; and (d) as such, he will succeed in expiating Man's sins and\nbringing the New Sun. Baldanders is a would-be Typhon -- his\nself-alteration is just one more clue tying the two together.\n\nFinally, I think there's also something to be found in the fact that\nBaldanders starts off as a very small man who grows to bloated size as the\nresult of his depradations against his fellow man -- it suggests Napoleon,\nwhich if intentional can be read as a symbol of mankind's conquering\narrogance. And is it any coincidence that Wolfe simultaneously casts\nBaldanders as the freak in a travelling road show (and one watched with\ndismay and amusement by the heirodules at the House Absolute)?\n\nMacronaut\n\n\n*David DiGiacomo * wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the\nlist, doing other web searches and reading Solar Labyrinth, I'm still at\na\nloss as to what or who Baldanders is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that he is a human who modified himself to extend his life\n(through the SFnal mechanism of unending growth). Otherwise he would not\nbe a candidate for Autarch/epitome.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T19:40:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10605170816r1891d400yac0739702511d5a2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also had the impression that he was a baby Abaia, though keeping in mind \nthat we have only a hazy notion of what Abaia & co. *are* (if we take into \naccount the nature of the sources we have for that info).\n\nI think that the person who suggested a comparison with Napoleon was on to \nsomething, although I'd go further and associate him with a state - possibly \nthe soviet union - or an ideology, most probably communism. In any event a \npotential further clue is his relationship with Talos; the scientist/artist \nis in service to the beast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, but\nI always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia -- and \nas\nsuch, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth. Obviously,\nthat could be wrong, but I can't recall a single indication that he was\noriginally a human being. Quite the opposite -- it seems like Wolfe takes\ngreat pains to show us that Baldanders is something very \"other.\"\n\nThe things ya learn on this list....\n\nOn 5/17/06, Macronaut wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. And I would argue that, as a candidate for epitome of Earth,\nBaldanders represented the Earth-that-was-punished with a black hole:\nmankind as amoral exploiter of nature and enslaver of fellow man. In \nfact,\nthe contrast presented when the heirodules bow down to Sev instead of\nBaldanders is pretty momentus foreshadowing because it ties so many\ninferences together, ie. that (a) Sev will be epitome of Earth; (b) Sev\nrepresents a different mankind than Baldanders; (c) judging by Baldanders'\nexample (\"human under glass, anyone?\") that version is a kinder, gentler,\nmore noble one; and (d) as such, he will succeed in expiating Man's sins \nand\nbringing the New Sun. Baldanders is a would-be Typhon -- his\nself-alteration is just one more clue tying the two together.\n\nFinally, I think there's also something to be found in the fact that\nBaldanders starts off as a very small man who grows to bloated size as the\nresult of his depradations against his fellow man -- it suggests Napoleon,\nwhich if intentional can be read as a symbol of mankind's conquering\narrogance. And is it any coincidence that Wolfe simultaneously casts\nBaldanders as the freak in a travelling road show (and one watched with\ndismay and amusement by the heirodules at the House Absolute)?\n\nMacronaut\n\n\n*David DiGiacomo * wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the\nlist, doing other web searches and reading Solar Labyrinth, I'm still at\na\nloss as to what or who Baldanders is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that he is a human who modified himself to extend his life\n(through the SFnal mechanism of unending growth). Otherwise he would not\nbe a candidate for Autarch/epitome.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605171300g530182d2j57654bd5b9d1ed82@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T20:00:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... no. Baldy is not a \"baby Abaia,\" he is a human who\naspires to the state of Abaiahood. Given that Abaia seems to\nbe a kind of demonic being, this is equivalent to saying that\nBaldanders is almost utterly corrupt. He is, I think, an example\nof the \"secular sorceror\" that affectionate uncle Screwtape\ntells his nephew will be Hell's ultimate achievement.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10605171311s2d278771j808354b4eddced8f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T20:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605171300g530182d2j57654bd5b9d1ed82@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And you base your unequivocal conclusion upon..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nUmmm ... no. Baldy is not a \"baby Abaia,\" he is a human who\naspires to the state of Abaiahood. Given that Abaia seems to\nbe a kind of demonic being, this is equivalent to saying that\nBaldanders is almost utterly corrupt. He is, I think, an example\nof the \"secular sorceror\" that affectionate uncle Screwtape\ntells his nephew will be Hell's ultimate achievement.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605171322i52439301jf4f6eb718a549ef6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T20:22:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10605171311s2d278771j808354b4eddced8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text, of course. Baldanders is a human scientist attempting\nto achieve a kind of godhood. If this isn't clear, I can only say,\nread more closely, especially the sequence (in CLAW) where the\ntouring company breaks up and, of course, the sequence (in\nSWORD) in the castle by Lake Diuturna.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote:\nAnd you base your unequivocal conclusion upon...\n\n\nOn 5/17/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummm ... no. Baldy is not a \"baby Abaia,\" he is a human who\naspires to the state of Abaiahood. Given that Abaia seems to\nbe a kind of demonic being, this is equivalent to saying that\nBaldanders is almost utterly corrupt. He is, I think, an example\nof the \"secular sorceror\" that affectionate uncle Screwtape\ntells his nephew will be Hell's ultimate achievement.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2102535.1147897585237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "Rob Davies", "address": "robertedavies at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-05-17T20:26:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605171322i52439301jf4f6eb718a549ef6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Dan'l. I have always read Baldanders to be a human who, like Typhon, used science/technology to enhance himself.\n\nRob\n\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSent: May 17, 2006 4:22 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Baldanders\n\nThe text, of course. Baldanders is a human scientist attempting\nto achieve a kind of godhood. If this isn't clear, I can only say,\nread more closely, especially the sequence (in CLAW) where the\ntouring company breaks up and, of course, the sequence (in\nSWORD) in the castle by Lake Diuturna.\n\n--Dan'l\n\nOn 5/17/06, pthwndxrclzp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And you base your unequivocal conclusion upon...\n\n\nOn 5/17/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ummm ... no. Baldy is not a \"baby Abaia,\" he is a human who\naspires to the state of Abaiahood. Given that Abaia seems to\nbe a kind of demonic being, this is equivalent to saying that\nBaldanders is almost utterly corrupt. He is, I think, an example\nof the \"secular sorceror\" that affectionate uncle Screwtape\ntells his nephew will be Hell's ultimate achievement.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T21:21:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<2102535.1147897585237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, some great discussion on this guy going on.\n\nKudos to mournings glory for noting the surely intentioned Frankenstein \nallusion (in a golden Severa etc. post)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hence Baldanders (note the German name) is both Dr. Frankenstein *and* his \nmonster -- a fact alluded to by Dr. Talos in his \"The castle? The monster? \nThe man of learning?\" speech, found in Chapter XXXV of -Sword_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My first clue to that allusion was the \"strange scars around his neck and \nears\" of Baldanders that Severian notes on their first meeting. Yes, \nBaldanders is both monster and creator here. But with respect to Talos, I \nthink Wolfe had a lot of fun in making this a reverse story with a monster \nwho creates his doctor.\n\nThere does seem to be some misunderstanding of Baldanders' size, however. I \nforget which character first reveals that Baldanders' growing is for the \npurpose of keeping him long-lived not because he wants to be big. He wants \nto grow as little as possible. Growth is the only way for humans to retain \nyouth (see exultants?)\n\nAs Sev himself notes on viewing the giant baby Catamite:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"it must have been that just as he (Baldanders) held his own growth in \ncheck, permitting only as >much as needed to save his mountainous body from \nthe ravages of the years, so he had >accelerated the growth of this poor \nboy in so far as was possible to his anthroposophic >knowledge.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "on that subject, how could the product of sex between Baldanders or Severian \nwith dark hair and Jurturna with white hair and green eyes produce a blonde \nhaired blue eyed baby? I still think it must be a Dorcas product." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T22:20:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"b sharp\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on that subject, how could the product of sex between Baldanders or \nSeverian\nwith dark hair and Jurturna with white hair and green eyes produce a blonde\nhaired blue eyed baby? I still think it must be a Dorcas product." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What color eyes and hair did the father of Jesus of Nazareth have?\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-17T22:34:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"b sharp\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on that subject, how could the product of sex between Baldanders or\nSeverian\nwith dark hair and Jurturna with white hair and green eyes produce a \nblonde\nhaired blue eyed baby? I still think it must be a Dorcas product." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What color eyes and hair did the father of Jesus of Nazareth have?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even though I'm Jewish, I mean no disrespect here -- it's just that \nsometimes when supernatural entities bump uglies with us mortals, the \nresults do not always conform to known genetics. At any rate Ouen has blue \neyes, as does Dorcas, his blonde-haired mother -- so there's no strict \nviolation of heritage.\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T10:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There does seem to be some misunderstanding of Baldanders' size, however. \nI\nforget which character first reveals that Baldanders' growing is for the\npurpose of keeping him long-lived not because he wants to be big. He wants\nto grow as little as possible. Growth is the only way for humans to retain\nyouth (see exultants?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite, and I think this is the source of some small confusion here. One \nof the cacogens says that \"for your species\" it is the only way to extend \nlife (or something along those lines). It is not entirely clear whether they \nare addressing Baldanders, Severian or both. Nor is it explicit whether \n\"your species\" = human.\n\nAs a separate question, would their statement be true of humans? Couldn't \nyou, say, cut your head off and put it on someone else's body if you were \nreally hard up?\n\nBut in any event the passage seemed to me a sort of metaphorical reference \nto expansionist states." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T14:48:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hoping to post correction of myself first ;). Juturna has red eyes, not \ngreen. Combining this with her white skin and hair (the green we learn is \nfrom algae) makes her and her kind true albinos I guess (like pet rabbits or \nlab rats?).\n\nRegarding Baldanders, Chris writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the cacogens says that \"for your species\" it is the only way to \nextend life (or something along those lines). It is not entirely clear \nwhether they are addressing Baldanders, Severian or both. Nor is it \nexplicit whether \"your species\" = human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is Ossipago (of course! the bone grower and Baldanders' teacher) who \nfirst discusses growth as the way to restore youth. Dr. Talos soon \ncorroborates that Baldanders' biochemistry must be careful monitored and \nregulated so he doesn't grow too fast. So Chris is bringing up the question \nof whether Severian and Baldanders are of the same species. There has been \nsome disagreement on whether Baldanders is human or not in recent posts. \nChris are you suggesting Severian might not be human or that Baldanders \nisn't?\n\nBy the naming convention discerned by past masters of this archive, \nBaldanders is not an (urthly) human. He is not named for a saint but rather \na giant from Borges' Book of Imaginary Beings (Wolfe himself confirms this). \n Wolfe also says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I also gave the people and other beings in the book real names, with the \nexception of the Ascian >who appears in The Citadel -- Loyal to the Group \nSeventeen. As for the monsters' names, I simply >named them for monsters\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Baldanders would seem to be either an \"other being\" or monster which may \nbe the inspiration for some who feel he is a \"baby Abaia\". Nonetheless he \nseems to start out looking like a small man. There are some other characters \nfrom the stars who seem to appear as small men........\n\nChris also writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a separate question, would their statement be true of humans? Couldn't \nyou, say, cut your head off and put it on someone else's body if you were \nreally hard up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the naming conventions noted above, Typhon can't be human. A description \nof the mythological Typhon: \"Typhon's hundred, horrible heads touched the \nstars, venom dripped from his evil eyes, and lava and red-hot stones poured \nfrom his gaping mouths. Hissing like a hundred snakes and roaring like a \nhundred lions, he tore up whole mountains and threw them at the gods\". \nSounds awfully monstrous to me.\n\nBut Chris' last note really killed me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in any event the passage seemed to me a sort of metaphorical reference \nto expansionist states." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now when faced with Baldanders growth/aging issues my \nbiological/anthropological background leads me to think of epiphyseal bone \nplates and chromosome telomere length. Chris immediately thinks of Adam \nSmith and Karl Marx etc. Fess up Chris,... economist? political scientist?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D15678D-1414-494B-BEF5-028BB16390A7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T15:15:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 18, 2006, at 9:48 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\n Wolfe also says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I also gave the people and other beings in the book real names, \nwith the\nexception of the Ascian >who appears in The Citadel -- Loyal to \nthe Group\nSeventeen. As for the monsters' names, I simply >named them for \nmonsters\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So Baldanders would seem to be either an \"other being\" or monster \nwhich may\nbe the inspiration for some who feel he is a \"baby Abaia\". \nNonetheless he\nseems to start out looking like a small man. There are some other \ncharacters\nfrom the stars who seem to appear as small men........" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why monsters can't be genetically human. Typhon and \nBaldanders both behave monstrously regardless of what their DNA looks \nlike.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060518172444.98004.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T17:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<7D15678D-1414-494B-BEF5-028BB16390A7@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree -- and it's not just that they behave\nmonstrously, but that this monstrous behavior is\nreflected in (and motivates) physical alteration into\nsomething monstrous we no longer feel comfortable\ndescribing as human. I think this is part of Wolfe's\ncommentary, found throughout the books, on the\nmorality of so-called \"transhumanism.\" Depending on\nthe morality that motivated the alteration, the\nalteration is beautiful (ie. the green man) or\nperverse (Typhon, Baldanders). There may be a third\ncategory, morality that is simply alien -- Im thinking\nof the undines -- reflected in characters who are\nsometimes beautiful, sometimes terrifying or ugly,\nsometimes both simultaneously. \n\nMacronaut" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn May 18, 2006, at 9:48 AM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Wolfe also says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"I also gave the people and other beings in the\nbook real names, \nwith the\nexception of the Ascian >who appears in The\nCitadel -- Loyal to \nthe Group\nSeventeen. As for the monsters' names, I simply\nnamed them for \nmonsters\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So Baldanders would seem to be either an \"other\nbeing\" or monster \nwhich may\nbe the inspiration for some who feel he is a \"baby\nAbaia\". \nNonetheless he\nseems to start out looking like a small man. There\nare some other \ncharacters\nfrom the stars who seem to appear as small\nmen........" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see why monsters can't be genetically human.\n Typhon and \nBaldanders both behave monstrously regardless of\nwhat their DNA looks \nlike.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605181136u363e3425y98318ccfd1598497@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T18:36:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<20060518172444.98004.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is part of Wolfe's\ncommentary, found throughout the books, on the\nmorality of so-called \"transhumanism.\" Depending on\nthe morality that motivated the alteration, the\nalteration is beautiful (ie. the green man) or\nperverse (Typhon, Baldanders). There may be a third\ncategory, morality that is simply alien -- Im thinking\nof the undines -- reflected in characters who are\nsometimes beautiful, sometimes terrifying or ugly,\nsometimes both simultaneously.Ooooh, nice take." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the impression that the undines were women\nonce who'd gone through a process like-but-unlike\nwhat Baldanders is doing to himself: like, in its main\nphysical effects; unlike, because they allowed it to\nbe done to them in service to another, while Baldanders\nis doing it to himself in service _of_ himself. This takes\non fuller meaning with what you've just said: they are\nboth beautiful and terrifying, both transhuman and\nmonstrous.\n\nClearly to a Christian (i.e. Wolfe), transhumance\ncannot be _of itself_ monstrous: the new body of the\ngeneral resurrection is to be transhuman (though I\ndistrust anyone's specific ideas of _how_).\n\nThought for rumination: in the Lupiverse, if you strive\nto be more than \"mere\" human, you become a monster;\nwhile if you strive to be more fully human, you become\nmore than human.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T19:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605181136u363e3425y98318ccfd1598497@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had the impression that the undines were women\nonce who'd gone through a process like-but-unlike\nwhat Baldanders is doing to himself: like, in its main\nphysical effects; unlike, because they allowed it to\nbe done to them in service to another, while Baldanders\nis doing it to himself in service _of_ himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicely put, and as I've speculated recently \n(http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2006-April/001892.html), \nI believe a case can be made that the undines are actually serving the \nHierodules rather than the Megatherians.\n\nFurther evidence can be adduced in the visit of Famulimus, Ossipago and \nBarbatus to Baldander's castle.\n\nSays Famulimus to Severian at one point, \"You know the water women, I \nbelieve.\" But how do the three Hierodules know this? Have they been \nmonitoring Sev all along since his inital encounter with Juturna and the \nnenuphars? Were they present, if remotely, via long-range reconnaissance, at \nCephissus? Or have they just read the reports, so to speak?\n\nAlso, when the Hierodule saucer is about to flit off from the castle, notice \nhow Severian describes one of its crewmembers: \"and then, just as I was \nwondering if the crew did not ever peer down to see us, *the mermen,* the \nstrange, uncouth beings who for a time walked the bottom below their hull, \none of them indeed came down, head foremost like a squirrel, wreathed in \norange light and clinging to the hull with hands and feet, though it was wet \nas any stone in a river...\"\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605181256u2c9009e3o728f6c2dde0b7797@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T19:56:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooooh. Nice detail; I'd forgotten that entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, when the Hierodule saucer is about to flit off from the castle,\nnotice how Severian describes one of its crewmembers: \"and then,\njust as I was wondering if the crew did not ever peer down to see us,\n*the mermen,* the strange, uncouth beings who for a time walked the\nbottom below their hull, one of them indeed came down, head\nforemost like a squirrel, wreathed in orange light and clinging to the\nhull with hands and feet, though it was wet as any stone in a river...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And we've had a previous significant encounter with a slippery wet\nstone in a river, which involved Juturna -- yes?\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c67ac4$b754bb40$b53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-18T21:47:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605181256u2c9009e3o728f6c2dde0b7797@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mourning's glory wrote:\nSays Famulimus to Severian at one point, \"You know the water women, I\nbelieve.\" But how do the three Hierodules know this? Have they been\nmonitoring Sev all along since his inital encounter with Juturna and the\nnenuphars? Were they present, if remotely, via long-range reconnaissance,\nat\nCephissus? Or have they just read the reports, so to speak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they live counterclockwise. That meeting at the castle was supposed\nto be, from their point of view, the last with Severian -- and would have\nbeen if Wolfe hadn't written URTH. They had been his friends and counselors\nduring the ten years of his autarchy and had doubtless heard his life story\nup to the day he left for Ushas.\n\nIt must have been pretty damn awkward for Severian to conduct a sensible\ndialogue with them during those years, because each day they would know less\nthan the day before, from his point of view. I know it sounds goofy, but it\nhad to be that way. Their first meeting with him was outside his stateroom\non the Ship, and they didn't know anything about him, except possibly\nwhatever they had been briefed on, presumably by the Hierogrammates.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T21:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "b sharp says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding Baldanders, Chris writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the cacogens says that \"for your species\" it is the only way to\nextend life (or something along those lines). It is not entirely clear\nwhether they are addressing Baldanders, Severian or both. Nor is it\nexplicit whether \"your species\" = human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is Ossipago (of course! the bone grower and Baldanders' teacher) who\nfirst discusses growth as the way to restore youth. Dr. Talos soon\ncorroborates that Baldanders' biochemistry must be careful monitored and\nregulated so he doesn't grow too fast. So Chris is bringing up the \nquestion\nof whether Severian and Baldanders are of the same species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is one of the questions implicit here. The second is whether one, both, \nor neither are human - which you also picked up on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has been some disagreement on whether Baldanders is human or not in \nrecent posts.\nChris are you suggesting Severian might not be human or that Baldanders\nisn't?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose the only answer I can give here is \"yes\" - I am suggesting both of \nthe above, though I am not really arguing either. I am, though, saying that \nthe significance we draw from this passage will depend on how we are \ninclined to answer these questions.\n\nWith regard to Baldanders this ground has been at least partially covered, \nalthough there is the additional odd significance of the dream when he and \nSeverian were sharing the bed. Also, as you point out, his name, although I \nam wary of relying too much on Wolfe's naming conventions.\n\nIntuitively it seems difficult to try and argue that Severian is non-human, \nbut isn't Severian's nature constantly coming into question? I can think of \nsome particular instances in UotNS, but if we don't want to go that far \nforward in the series, doesn't Severian (as Conciliator) have some kind of \ndifference with normal humans?\n\nI suppose I should also note, though this may lead us far astray, that the \nnotion of humanity calls for clarification at some points in this series. Is \nthe green man human? Wolfe's apparent answer is \"yes\". Is he more human, \nless human, or human to the same degree, as you or I? And where would the \nhumans of Severian's time - somewhere between ours and the green man's - \nfall?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the naming conventions noted above, Typhon can't be human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet his lineage seems straightforwardly human. Perhaps, as others have \npointed out, the name has more to do with his actions than his species. As I \nmentioned earlier I think that an over-reliance on Wolfe's naming \nconventions (something that I think Borski is vulnerable to on occasion) can \nbe misleading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Chris' last note really killed me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But in any event the passage seemed to me a sort of metaphorical \nreference\nto expansionist states." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now when faced with Baldanders growth/aging issues my\nbiological/anthropological background leads me to think of epiphyseal bone\nplates and chromosome telomere length. Chris immediately thinks of Adam\nSmith and Karl Marx etc. Fess up Chris,... economist? political \nscientist?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Philosopher.\n\nBut in any event what I was probably actually thinking of when I came to \nthat interpretation was not Marx but Hobbes. \"Leviathan\", natch. Even if my \ninterpretation is incorrect, which it might be, the connection of Hobbes to \nAbaia & co. is not incidental, though it might take an entire thesis to \nfully explore it.\n\nIn my view the primary difference between Abaia and the Baldanders we \ninitially meet is that Abaia has been swallowed up by the waters of the \npast, and has consequently grown under the surface - exerting an influence \nwhile being only dimly understood and recognized by the people of Urth. As \nTalos says in that same section of Sword, \"Surely you know that just as \nmomentous events of the past cast their shadows down the ages, so now, when \nthe sun is drawing toward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to \ntrouble mankind's dream.\" Baldanders fails, as eventually he must anyway - \nattempts to control his growth could keep him above surface without \ncollapsing under his own weight for only so long - and takes his place under \nthe water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate clean, leaving \nno apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial undines who themselves \nseem to be seen in a different light at that point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<348C826F-E265-45F7-AB79-396B1BDA8ED9@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T21:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 18, 2006, at 4:48 PM, Chris wrote:\n I can think of\nsome particular instances in UotNS, but if we don't want to go that \nfar\nforward in the series, doesn't Severian (as Conciliator) have some \nkind of\ndifference with normal humans?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That the Conciliator may be both fully human *and* fully divine has \nnot been viewed as problematic for Catholics since 325.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060518223535.50061.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T22:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605181136u363e3425y98318ccfd1598497@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thought for rumination: in the Lupiverse, if you\nstrive to be more than \"mere\" human, you become a\nmonster; while if you strive to be more fully human,\nyou become more than human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's an excellent and intruiging observation\n-- it certainly applies to Sev, maybe to the green\nman, and maybe to others like Tzadkiel or the people\nof Yesod.\n\nYou might also be able to argue that this difference\nis reflected in where people draw their powers -- that\nwhen you become more human your power comes from the\nIncreate rather than technology. Sev draws not on\ndevices to do things but on star power that he uses by\nsome unknown means. Sev and the green man travel the\ncorridors of time without apparent aid of technology. \nPeople like Sev and the green man don't use devices to\naccomplish things -- they just have some innate or\nlearned ability.\n\nThere are certainly problems with this theory -- the\nheirodules clearly use technology for time travel and\nall the rest, and are impliedly closer to the\nIncreate. And the undines have innate power to travel\ntime, invade dreams, etc. and yet are surely not very\nhuman (though I agree they may start out that way,\nalbeit albino and with webby toes, a la Idas). \nNevertheless, I think there's a kernel of something\ntrue there. Maybe the heirodules are less than human\n-- tools to help us evolve. And the undines can be\nambiguous under this analysis too.\n\nMacronaut" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI think this is part of Wolfe's\ncommentary, found throughout the books, on the\nmorality of so-called \"transhumanism.\" Depending\non\nthe morality that motivated the alteration, the\nalteration is beautiful (ie. the green man) or\nperverse (Typhon, Baldanders). There may be a\nthird\ncategory, morality that is simply alien -- Im\nthinking\nof the undines -- reflected in characters who are\nsometimes beautiful, sometimes terrifying or ugly,\nsometimes both simultaneously.Ooooh, nice take." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had the impression that the undines were women\nonce who'd gone through a process like-but-unlike\nwhat Baldanders is doing to himself: like, in its\nmain\nphysical effects; unlike, because they allowed it to\nbe done to them in service to another, while\nBaldanders\nis doing it to himself in service _of_ himself. This\ntakes\non fuller meaning with what you've just said: they\nare\nboth beautiful and terrifying, both transhuman and\nmonstrous.\n\nClearly to a Christian (i.e. Wolfe), transhumance\ncannot be _of itself_ monstrous: the new body of the\ngeneral resurrection is to be transhuman (though I\ndistrust anyone's specific ideas of _how_).\n\nThought for rumination: in the Lupiverse, if you\nstrive\nto be more than \"mere\" human, you become a monster;\nwhile if you strive to be more fully human, you\nbecome\nmore than human.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n-- \nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who\nfear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605181549x317e5461o79c5cbfac076380@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-18T22:49:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/06, Chris wrote:\nBut in any event what I was probably actually thinking of when I\ncame to that interpretation was not Marx but Hobbes. \"Leviathan\",\nnatch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Baldanders is nasty, brutish, and, uh, tall?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if my interpretation is incorrect, which it might be, the\nconnection of Hobbes to Abaia & co. is not incidental, though it\nmight take an entire thesis to fully explore it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; I think you're quite correct. This is one of those things that\nhas been under our noses forever. D'oh! Of _course_ the Megas\nare \"Leviathan\"s.\n\nNonetheless: I don't buy Baldanders as a Megatherian. He's\na human who is attempting to follow their pattern for immortality.\nI don't have copy here to refer to but I'm deeply certain of it, if\nonly because it fits the moral structures (and strictures) of the\nUrth cosmology so well.\n\nSo why does he have a monster-name? Because he isn't\nhuman _anymore_. The convention is not one of the\nCommonwealth, after all; it's Wolfe's, a way of cluing us in\nto who's a monster and who isn't, part of the fiction of his\n\"translation.\"\n\nBaldanders is a self-made monster, and a reverse-image of\nthe ... oh, heck, I've forgotten their name ... the humans\nwho've had themselves decorticated so they don't have to\nbe human anymore? In the forest near Little Severian's\nhouse? (Who are in their way also reverse-images of the\nalzabo... There's a whole lot of mirroring goin' on in the Urth\nsequence.) They have given up humanity in one direction;\nBaldanders gives it up in the opposite direction, aiming at\n\"science\" and knowledge ... yet becomes a creature of\nprimal passion in the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my view the primary difference between Abaia and the Baldanders\nwe initially meet is that Abaia has been swallowed up by the waters\nof the past, and has consequently grown under the surface - exerting\nan influence while being only dimly understood and recognized by the\npeople of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How much of an influence, I wonder, does he really have? What\nis his function in the Ascian's system of governance, anyway?\nDoes he mind-control the Group of Seventeen? Or..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Talos says in that same section of Sword, \"Surely you know that\njust as momentous events of the past cast their shadows down the\nages, so now, when the sun is drawing toward the dark, our own\nshadows race into the past to trouble mankind's dream.\" Baldanders\nfails, as eventually he must anyway -" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... I had always read this (including Baldanders's failure) as mostly\nplay upon the Frankenstein story, with perhaps a bit of \"The Day the\nEarth Stood Still\" thrown in. (\"No, you misunderstand. Gort is the\nmaster.\" Michael Rennie might have made an excellent Severian,\ncome to think of it...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "attempts to control his growth could keep him above surface without\ncollapsing under his own weight for only so long - and takes his place\nunder the water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate\nclean, leaving no apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial\nundines who themselves seem to be seen in a different light at that\npoint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do wonder about this. Is there any specific (textual) reason to\nsuppose that the Megatherians, at least some of them, _don't_\nsurvive the coming of the White Fountain? Thematically it makes\nsome sense, but it also makes thematic sense that at least some\n_do_ survive -- such events never solve the big problems, only put\nthem on the back burner for a while. (Of course, it could be argued\nthat the Megatherians _aren't_ a big problem, only a symptom.)\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<64AB12CB-8450-4557-9517-D982645600C1@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T00:03:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c67ac4$b754bb40$b53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 18, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIt must have been pretty damn awkward for Severian to conduct a \nsensible\ndialogue with them during those years, because each day they would \nknow less\nthan the day before, from his point of view. I know it sounds \ngoofy, but it\nhad to be that way. Their first meeting with him was outside his \nstateroom\non the Ship, and they didn't know anything about him, except possibly\nwhatever they had been briefed on, presumably by the Hierogrammates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian could get around the time reversal problem by planning (and \nthen remembering) to tell the Hierodules everything important on his \nmeeting/their farewell day. Then they would know everything by \nreport from their first encounter with Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c67adc$b039a740$ef3dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-19T00:39:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<64AB12CB-8450-4557-9517-D982645600C1@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nSo why does he have a monster-name? Because he isn't\nhuman _anymore_. The convention is not one of the\nCommonwealth, after all; it's Wolfe's, a way of cluing us in\nto who's a monster and who isn't, part of the fiction of his\n\"translation.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Baldanders was just a man, at least to start with. On the last\nday of Urth, Severian saw him and thought he \"was grown too large for me to\nthink him human ever again, his face heavier still and more misshapen, his\nskin as white as that of the water woman who had once saved me from\ndrowning.\" (URTH, 302)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "attempts to control his growth could keep him above surface without\ncollapsing under his own weight for only so long - and takes his place\nunder the water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate\nclean, leaving no apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial\nundines who themselves seem to be seen in a different light at that\npoint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do wonder about this. Is there any specific (textual) reason to\nsuppose that the Megatherians, at least some of them, _don't_\nsurvive the coming of the White Fountain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None that I know of. As for Baldanders, just as the flood hit the throne\nroom, these were his final lines in the story: \"I will not drown,\"\nBaldanders rumbled. \"And the rest do not matter. Save yourself if you can.\"\n(307)\n\nThat leads me to believe he had no particular reason to fear the flood, and\nthat he believed he would survive it. We know Juturna did. Why wouldn't he?\nThe water had been his home for fifty years.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maru dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T01:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605181549x317e5461o79c5cbfac076380@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/06, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 5/18/06, Chris wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "attempts to control his growth could keep him above surface without\ncollapsing under his own weight for only so long - and takes his place\nunder the water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate\nclean, leaving no apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial\nundines who themselves seem to be seen in a different light at that\npoint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do wonder about this. Is there any specific (textual) reason to\nsuppose that the Megatherians, at least some of them, _don't_\nsurvive the coming of the White Fountain? Thematically it makes\nsome sense, but it also makes thematic sense that at least some\n_do_ survive -- such events never solve the big problems, only put\nthem on the back burner for a while. (Of course, it could be argued\nthat the Megatherians _aren't_ a big problem, only a symptom.)\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say that unless we have specific textual evidence to the contrary,\nwe should assume they survived. After all, in the first flood, Noah\ndid not need to carry on the Ark two of each kind of fish. And didn't\nSev see one of the Undines in a ruined city in the sea?\n\n~maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T02:26:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do wonder about this. Is there any specific (textual) reason to\nsuppose that the Megatherians, at least some of them, _don't_\nsurvive the coming of the White Fountain? Thematically it makes\nsome sense, but it also makes thematic sense that at least some\n_do_ survive --" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Survive, yes; thrive, no. \"Their power surpasses understanding, and I know \nnow that they could crush us in a day if it were not that they count only \nenslavement, and not annihilation, as victory.\" So if a flood wiped out all \nof their current slaves (the Ascians), as well as most of their potential \nfuture ones (everyone else), they probably wouldn't even stay -- certainly, \nunless they were irretrievably stranded, they would have little reason to \nprolong their mission.\n\nM" } ] }, { "message_id": "<446D4ED9.7010602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T04:51:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<2124d6b10605170816r1891d400yac0739702511d5a2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "pthwndxrclzp wrote:\nWow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, \nbut I always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia \n-- and as such, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth. \nObviously, that could be wrong, but I can't recall a single indication \nthat he was originally a human being. Quite the opposite -- it seems \nlike Wolfe takes great pains to show us that Baldanders is something \nvery \"other.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question is more properly, \"What sorts of things are Baldanders?\" \nHe isn't just one thing, and doesn't merely symbolize one thing. He's a \ntree, he's a man, he's a black magician who wants to take God's place." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2124d6b10605182247i46de0884j4be4f20fb4a4187b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "pthwndxrclzp", "address": "aquastor at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T05:47:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<446D4ED9.7010602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Now* I understand why Wolfe was so fond of Jennifer Stevens' psychosexual\nneofantasy Trash Sex Magic (he wrote the cover blurb)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\npthwndxrclzp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available,\nbut I always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia\n-- and as such, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth.\nObviously, that could be wrong, but I can't recall a single indication\nthat he was originally a human being. Quite the opposite -- it seems\nlike Wolfe takes great pains to show us that Baldanders is something\nvery \"other.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is more properly, \"What sorts of things are Baldanders?\"\nHe isn't just one thing, and doesn't merely symbolize one thing. He's a\ntree, he's a man, he's a black magician who wants to take God's place.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T07:55:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605181549x317e5461o79c5cbfac076380@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nonetheless: I don't buy Baldanders as a Megatherian. He's\na human who is attempting to follow their pattern for immortality.\nI don't have copy here to refer to but I'm deeply certain of it, if\nonly because it fits the moral structures (and strictures) of the\nUrth cosmology so well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, the two assertions (about the nature of Abaia and Baldanders, \nrespectively) don't necessarily stand together. On the other hand I think \nthe case is relatively strong that even if Baldanders didn't start out as \none of them, he nonetheless ends up with them. But again: who says that \nAbaia & co. started out the way they are now? The only thing we have about \ntheir origin is from a fairy tale, and even that...\n\nBut in any event I remember a very strong impression from my reading of \nthose chapters of Lictor that the entire thing was verging on an overt \nmetaphor for oppressive states - so much so that I considered the \npossibility that Wolfe intended us to see it as having been fictionalized by \nSeverian. A little cautionary tale from the aspiring writer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "under the water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate\nclean, leaving no apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial\nundines who themselves seem to be seen in a different light at that\npoint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do wonder about this. Is there any specific (textual) reason to\nsuppose that the Megatherians, at least some of them, _don't_\nsurvive the coming of the White Fountain? Thematically it makes\nsome sense, but it also makes thematic sense that at least some\n_do_ survive" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I did simplify there. Thematically what makes the *most* sense, given \nthe cyclical nature of the timeline (presented in Eschatology & Genesis and \nhinted at by the Hierodules), is that they survive in a sense, but as seeds \nthat will grow over time (in the same way the originals supposedly did). \nThis also has the advantage of adding a little sense to Talos's comment I \nquoted earlier - their proximity to the end of the cycle means that their \nechoes will reach the \"past\" similar to the way things past echo into the \nfuture.\n\nThe fact that the undines are present both at the beginning and the end of \nthe cycle I think points to an important difference between them and the \nmegatherians. I do not read them as simply the creatures or servants of \nAbaia." } ] } ] }