Subject: (urth) Baldanders

From: James Machin <jfmachin at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:32:54 +0000

Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the 
list, doing other web searches and reading Solar Labyrinth, I'm still at a 
loss as to what or who Baldanders is. The general assumption is that he is 
somehow related to the undines, but this is just as assumption (I think?) 
and there are other obvious possibilities (genetic modification, mutation, 
extrasolarian blood etc), but none are clearly indicated by Wolfe (and if 
I'm wrong about this please put me right). To my reading of BotNS, more so 
than any other character, Baldanders' origins and motivations remain 
profoundly mysterious. The only thing that really seems clear by the end of 
Sword is that he is at best morally ambiguous and at worse a monster. In a 
book full of characters whose purposes and even identities are obscure at 
best, he seems the most unreadable and, perhaps because of this, one of the 
most compelling. If anyone can shed any light on the matter for me, I'd be 
most appreciative!

---

From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:31:09 +0000

>loss as to what or who Baldanders is.

I believe that he is a human who modified himself to extend his life
(through the SFnal mechanism of unending growth).  Otherwise he would not
be a candidate for Autarch/epitome.

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:56:57 +0000

I agree.  And I would argue that, as a candidate for epitome of Earth, Baldanders represented the Earth-that-was-punished with a black hole: mankind as amoral exploiter of nature and enslaver of fellow man.  In fact, the contrast presented when the heirodules bow down to Sev instead of Baldanders is pretty momentus foreshadowing because it ties so many inferences together, ie. that (a) Sev  will be epitome of Earth; (b) Sev represents a different mankind than Baldanders; (c) judging by Baldanders' example ("human under glass, anyone?") that version is a kinder, gentler, more noble one; and (d) as such, he will succeed in expiating Man's sins and bringing the New Sun.  Baldanders is a would-be Typhon -- his self-alteration is just one more clue tying the two together.

Finally, I think there's also something to be found in the fact that Baldanders starts off as a very small man who grows to bloated size as the result of his depradations against his fellow man -- it suggests Napoleon, which if intentional can be read as a symbol of mankind's conquering arrogance.  And is it any coincidence that Wolfe simultaneously casts Baldanders as the freak in a travelling road show (and one watched with dismay and amusement by the heirodules at the House Absolute)?

Macronaut

David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com> wrote: >Apologies if this sounds like a facile question, but after searching the 

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From: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:16:17 +0000

Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, but
I always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia -- and as
such, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth. Obviously,
that could be wrong, but I can't recall a single indication that he was
originally a human being. Quite the opposite -- it seems like Wolfe takes
great pains to show us that Baldanders is something very "other."

The things ya learn on this list....

On 5/17/06, Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I agree.  And I would argue that, as a candidate for epitome of Earth,
> Baldanders represented the Earth-that-was-punished with a black hole:
> mankind as amoral exploiter of nature and enslaver of fellow man.  In fact,
> the contrast presented when the heirodules bow down to Sev instead of
> Baldanders is pretty momentus foreshadowing because it ties so many
> inferences together, ie. that (a) Sev  will be epitome of Earth; (b) Sev
> represents a different mankind than Baldanders; (c) judging by Baldanders'
> example ("human under glass, anyone?") that version is a kinder, gentler,
> more noble one; and (d) as such, he will succeed in expiating Man's sins and
> bringing the New Sun.  Baldanders is a would-be Typhon -- his
> self-alteration is just one more clue tying the two together.
>
> Finally, I think there's also something to be found in the fact that
> Baldanders starts off as a very small man who grows to bloated size as the
> result of his depradations against his fellow man -- it suggests Napoleon,
> which if intentional can be read as a symbol of mankind's conquering
> arrogance.  And is it any coincidence that Wolfe simultaneously casts
> Baldanders as the freak in a travelling road show (and one watched with
> dismay and amusement by the heirodules at the House Absolute)?
>
> Macronaut
>
>
> *David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>* wrote:
>
> ------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
>
>
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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:40:20 +0000

I also had the impression that he was a baby Abaia, though keeping in mind 
that we have only a hazy notion of what Abaia & co. *are* (if we take into 
account the nature of the sources we have for that info).

I think that the person who suggested a comparison with Napoleon was on to 
something, although I'd go further and associate him with a state - possibly 
the soviet union - or an ideology, most probably communism. In any event a 
potential further clue is his relationship with Talos; the scientist/artist 
is in service to the beast.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:00:12 +0000

Ummm ... no. Baldy is not a "baby Abaia," he is a human who
aspires to the state of Abaiahood. Given that Abaia seems to
be a kind of demonic being, this is equivalent to saying that
Baldanders is almost utterly corrupt. He is, I think, an example
of the "secular sorceror" that affectionate uncle Screwtape
tells his nephew will be Hell's ultimate achievement.

--Dan'l

-- 
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:11:29 +0000

And you base your unequivocal conclusion upon...

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:22:08 +0000

The text, of course. Baldanders is a human scientist attempting
to achieve a kind of godhood. If this isn't clear, I can only say,
read more closely, especially the sequence (in CLAW) where the
touring company breaks up and, of course, the sequence (in
SWORD) in the castle by Lake Diuturna.

--Dan'l

---

From: Rob Davies <robertedavies at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:26:24 +0000

I agree with Dan'l. I have always read Baldanders to be a human who, like Typhon, used science/technology to enhance himself.

Rob

-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
>Sent: May 17, 2006 4:22 PM
>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>Subject: Re: (urth) Baldanders
>

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:21:24 +0000

Well, some great discussion on this guy going on.

Kudos to mournings glory for noting the surely intentioned Frankenstein 
allusion (in a golden Severa etc. post)

>Hence Baldanders (note the German name) is both Dr. Frankenstein *and* his 
>monster -- a fact alluded to by Dr. Talos in his "The castle? The monster? 
>The man of learning?" speech, found in Chapter XXXV of -Sword_.

My first clue to that allusion was the "strange scars around his neck and 
ears"  of Baldanders that Severian notes on their first meeting.  Yes, 
Baldanders is both monster and creator here.  But with respect to Talos, I 
think Wolfe had a lot of fun in making this a reverse story with a monster 
who creates his doctor.

There does seem to be some misunderstanding of Baldanders' size, however.  I 
forget which character first reveals that Baldanders' growing is for the 
purpose of keeping him long-lived not because he wants to be big. He wants 
to grow as little as possible. Growth is the only way for humans to retain 
youth (see exultants?)

As Sev himself notes on viewing the giant baby Catamite:

>"it must have been that just as he (Baldanders) held his own growth in 
>check, permitting only as >much as needed to save his mountainous body from 
>the ravages of the years, so he had >accelerated the growth of this poor 
>boy in so far as was possible to his anthroposophic >knowledge."

on that subject, how could the product of sex between Baldanders or Severian 
with dark hair and Jurturna with white hair and green eyes produce a blonde 
haired blue eyed baby?  I still think it must be a Dorcas product.

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:20:56 +0000

>haired blue eyed baby?  I still think it must be a Dorcas product.

What color eyes and hair did the father of Jesus of Nazareth have?

em

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:34:50 +0000

> >From: "b sharp" <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>

Even though I'm Jewish, I mean no disrespect here -- it's just that 
sometimes when supernatural entities bump uglies with us mortals, the 
results do not always conform to known genetics. At any rate Ouen has blue 
eyes, as does Dorcas, his blonde-haired mother -- so there's no strict 
violation of heritage.

em

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:42:32 +0000

>to grow as little as possible. Growth is the only way for humans to retain

Not quite, and I think this is the source of some small confusion here. One 
of the cacogens says that "for your species" it is the only way to extend 
life (or something along those lines). It is not entirely clear whether they 
are addressing Baldanders, Severian or both. Nor is it explicit whether 
"your species" = human.

As a separate question, would their statement be true of humans? Couldn't 
you, say, cut your head off and put it on someone else's body if you were 
really hard up?

But in any event the passage seemed to me a sort of metaphorical reference 
to expansionist states.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:48:25 +0000

Hoping to post correction of myself first ;).  Juturna has red eyes, not 
green.  Combining this with her white skin and hair (the green we learn is 
from algae) makes her and her kind true albinos I guess (like pet rabbits or 
lab rats?).

Regarding Baldanders, Chris writes:

>One of the cacogens says that "for your species" it is the only way to 
>extend life (or something along those lines). It is not entirely clear 
>whether they are addressing Baldanders, Severian or both. Nor is it 
>explicit whether "your species" = human.

It is Ossipago (of course! the bone grower and Baldanders' teacher) who 
first discusses growth as the way to restore youth.  Dr. Talos soon 
corroborates that Baldanders' biochemistry must be careful monitored and 
regulated so he doesn't grow too fast.  So Chris is bringing up the question 
of whether Severian and Baldanders are of the same species. There has been 
some disagreement on whether Baldanders is human or not in recent posts. 
Chris are you suggesting Severian might not be human or that Baldanders 
isn't?

By the naming convention discerned by past masters of this archive, 
Baldanders is not an (urthly) human.  He is not named for a saint but rather 
a giant from Borges' Book of Imaginary Beings (Wolfe himself confirms this). 
  Wolfe also says:

>"I also gave the people and other beings in the book real names, with the 
>exception of the Ascian >who appears in The Citadel -- Loyal to the Group 
>Seventeen. As for the monsters' names, I simply >named them for monsters".

So Baldanders would seem to be either an "other being" or monster which may 
be the inspiration for some who feel he is a "baby Abaia". Nonetheless he 
seems to start out looking like a small man. There are some other characters 
from the stars who seem to appear as small men........

>you, say, cut your head off and put it on someone else's body if you were 

By the naming conventions noted above, Typhon can't be human.  A description 
of the mythological Typhon: "Typhon's hundred, horrible heads touched the 
stars, venom dripped from his evil eyes, and lava and red-hot stones poured 
from his gaping mouths. Hissing like a hundred snakes and roaring like a 
hundred lions, he tore up whole mountains and threw them at the gods".  
Sounds awfully monstrous to me.

>But in any event the passage seemed to me a sort of metaphorical reference 

Now when faced with Baldanders growth/aging issues my 
biological/anthropological background leads me to think of epiphyseal bone 
plates and chromosome telomere length. Chris immediately thinks of Adam 
Smith and Karl Marx etc. Fess up Chris,... economist?  political scientist?

-bsharp

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:15:32 +0000

> from the stars who seem to appear as small men........

I don't see why monsters can't be genetically human.  Typhon and  
Baldanders both behave monstrously regardless of what their DNA looks  
like.

Adam

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:24:44 +0000

I agree -- and it's not just that they behave
monstrously, but that this monstrous behavior is
reflected in (and motivates) physical alteration into
something monstrous we no longer feel comfortable
describing as human.  I think this is part of Wolfe's
commentary, found throughout the books, on the
morality of so-called "transhumanism."  Depending on
the morality that motivated the alteration, the
alteration is beautiful (ie. the green man) or
perverse (Typhon, Baldanders).  There may be a third
category, morality that is simply alien -- Im thinking
of the undines -- reflected in characters who are
sometimes beautiful, sometimes terrifying or ugly,
sometimes both simultaneously.  

Macronaut

--- Adam Thornton <adam at io.com> wrote:

> >> "I also gave the people and other beings in the
> book real names,  
> >> with the
> >> exception of the Ascian >who appears in The
> Citadel -- Loyal to  
> >> the Group
> >> Seventeen. As for the monsters' names, I simply
> >named them for  
> >> monsters".
> >
> > So Baldanders would seem to be either an "other
> being" or monster  
> > which may
> > be the inspiration for some who feel he is a "baby
> Abaia".  
> > Nonetheless he
> > seems to start out looking like a small man. There
> are some other  
> > characters

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:36:18 +0000

> I think this is part of Wolfe's
> sometimes both simultaneously.Ooooh, nice take.

I had the impression that the undines were women
once who'd gone through a process like-but-unlike
what Baldanders is doing to himself: like, in its main
physical effects; unlike, because they allowed it to
be done to them in service to another, while Baldanders
is doing it to himself in service _of_ himself. This takes
on fuller meaning with what you've just said: they are
both beautiful and terrifying, both transhuman and
monstrous.

Clearly to a Christian (i.e. Wolfe), transhumance
cannot be _of itself_ monstrous: the new body of the
general resurrection is to be transhuman (though I
distrust anyone's specific ideas of _how_).

Thought for rumination: in the Lupiverse, if you strive
to be more than "mere" human, you become a monster;
while if you strive to be more fully human, you become
more than human.

--Dan'l

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:39:25 +0000

>is doing it to himself in service _of_ himself.

Nicely put, and as I've speculated recently 
(http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2006-April/001892.html), 
I believe a case can be made that the undines are actually serving the 
Hierodules rather than the Megatherians.

Further evidence can be adduced in the visit of Famulimus, Ossipago and 
Barbatus to Baldander's castle.

Says Famulimus to Severian at one point, "You know the water women, I 
believe." But how do the three Hierodules know this? Have they been 
monitoring Sev all along since his inital encounter with Juturna and the 
nenuphars? Were they present, if remotely, via long-range reconnaissance, at 
Cephissus? Or have they just read the reports, so to speak?

Also, when the Hierodule saucer is about to flit off from the castle, notice 
how Severian describes one of its crewmembers: "and then, just as I was 
wondering if the crew did not ever peer down to see us, *the mermen,* the 
strange, uncouth beings who for a time walked the bottom below their hull, 
one of them indeed came down, head foremost like a squirrel, wreathed in 
orange light and clinging to the hull with hands and feet, though it was wet 
as any stone in a river..."

em

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:56:12 +0000

Ooooh. Nice detail; I'd forgotten that entirely.

> Also, when the Hierodule saucer is about to flit off from the castle,
> notice how Severian describes one of its crewmembers: "and then,
> just as I was wondering if the crew did not ever peer down to see us,
> *the mermen,* the strange, uncouth beings who for a time walked the
> bottom below their hull, one of them indeed came down, head
> foremost like a squirrel, wreathed in orange light and clinging to the
> hull with hands and feet, though it was wet as any stone in a river..."

And we've had a previous significant encounter with a slippery wet
stone in a river, which involved Juturna -- yes?

--Dan'l

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:47:48 +0000

>Cephissus? Or have they just read the reports, so to speak?

Because they live counterclockwise. That meeting at the castle was supposed
to be, from their point of view, the last with Severian -- and would have
been if Wolfe hadn't written URTH. They had been his friends and counselors
during the ten years of his autarchy and had doubtless heard his life story
up to the day he left for Ushas.

It must have been pretty damn awkward for Severian to conduct a sensible
dialogue with them during those years, because each day they would know less
than the day before, from his point of view. I know it sounds goofy, but it
had to be that way. Their first meeting with him was outside his stateroom
on the Ship, and they didn't know anything about him, except possibly
whatever they had been briefed on, presumably by the Hierogrammates.

-Roy

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:48:05 +0000

b sharp says:
>of whether Severian and Baldanders are of the same species.

That is one of the questions implicit here. The second is whether one, both, 
or neither are human - which you also picked up on.

>There has been some disagreement on whether Baldanders is human or not in 
>recent posts.

I suppose the only answer I can give here is "yes" - I am suggesting both of 
the above, though I am not really arguing either. I am, though, saying that 
the significance we draw from this passage will depend on how we are 
inclined to answer these questions.

With regard to Baldanders this ground has been at least partially covered, 
although there is the additional odd significance of the dream when he and 
Severian were sharing the bed. Also, as you point out, his name, although I 
am wary of relying too much on Wolfe's naming conventions.

Intuitively it seems difficult to try and argue that Severian is non-human, 
but isn't Severian's nature constantly coming into question? I can think of 
some particular instances in UotNS, but if we don't want to go that far 
forward in the series, doesn't Severian (as Conciliator) have some kind of 
difference with normal humans?

I suppose I should also note, though this may lead us far astray, that the 
notion of humanity calls for clarification at some points in this series. Is 
the green man human? Wolfe's apparent answer is "yes". Is he more human, 
less human, or human to the same degree, as you or I? And where would the 
humans of Severian's time - somewhere between ours and the green man's - 
fall?

>By the naming conventions noted above, Typhon can't be human.

And yet his lineage seems straightforwardly human. Perhaps, as others have 
pointed out, the name has more to do with his actions than his species. As I 
mentioned earlier I think that an over-reliance on Wolfe's naming 
conventions (something that I think Borski is vulnerable to on occasion) can 
be misleading.

>Smith and Karl Marx etc. Fess up Chris,... economist?  political 

Philosopher.

But in any event what I was probably actually thinking of when I came to 
that interpretation was not Marx but Hobbes. "Leviathan", natch. Even if my 
interpretation is incorrect, which it might be, the connection of Hobbes to 
Abaia & co. is not incidental, though it might take an entire thesis to 
fully explore it.

In my view the primary difference between Abaia and the Baldanders we 
initially meet is that Abaia has been swallowed up by the waters of the 
past, and has consequently grown under the surface - exerting an influence 
while being only dimly understood and recognized by the people of Urth. As 
Talos says in that same section of Sword, "Surely you know that just as 
momentous events of the past cast their shadows down the ages, so now, when 
the sun is drawing toward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to 
trouble mankind's dream." Baldanders fails, as eventually he must anyway - 
attempts to control his growth could keep him above surface without 
collapsing under his own weight for only so long - and takes his place under 
the water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate clean, leaving 
no apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial undines who themselves 
seem to be seen in a different light at that point.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:54:15 +0000

On May 18, 2006, at 4:48 PM, Chris wrote:
>  I can think of

That the Conciliator may be both fully human *and* fully divine has  
not been viewed as problematic for Catholics since 325.

Adam

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:35:35 +0000

>Thought for rumination: in the Lupiverse, if you
>strive to be more than "mere" human, you become a
>monster; while if you strive to be more fully human,
>you become more than human.

I think that's an excellent and intruiging observation
-- it certainly applies to Sev, maybe to the green
man, and maybe to others like Tzadkiel or the people
of Yesod.

You might also be able to argue that this difference
is reflected in where people draw their powers -- that
when you become more human your power comes from the
Increate rather than technology.  Sev draws not on
devices to do things but on star power that he uses by
some unknown means.  Sev and the green man travel the
corridors of time without apparent aid of technology. 
People like Sev and the green man don't use devices to
accomplish things -- they just have some innate or
learned ability.

There are certainly problems with this theory -- the
heirodules clearly use technology for time travel and
all the rest, and are impliedly closer to the
Increate.  And the undines have innate power to travel
time, invade dreams, etc. and yet are surely not very
human (though I agree they may start out that way,
albeit albino and with webby toes, a la Idas). 
Nevertheless, I think there's a kernel of something
true there.  Maybe the heirodules are less than human
-- tools to help us evolve.  And the undines can be
ambiguous under this analysis too.

Macronaut

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:49:12 +0000

On 5/18/06, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote:
> But in any event what I was probably actually thinking of when I
> came to that interpretation was not Marx but Hobbes. "Leviathan",
> natch.

Because Baldanders is nasty, brutish, and, uh, tall?

> Even if my interpretation is incorrect, which it might be, the
> connection of Hobbes to Abaia & co. is not incidental, though it
> might take an entire thesis to fully explore it.

No; I think you're quite correct. This is one of those things that
has been under our noses forever. D'oh! Of _course_ the Megas
are "Leviathan"s.

Nonetheless: I don't buy Baldanders as a Megatherian. He's
a human who is attempting to follow their pattern for immortality.
I don't have copy here to refer to but I'm deeply certain of it, if
only because it fits the moral structures (and strictures) of the
Urth cosmology so well.

So why does he have a monster-name? Because he isn't
human _anymore_. The convention is not one of the
Commonwealth, after all; it's Wolfe's, a way of cluing us in
to who's a monster and who isn't, part of the fiction of his
"translation."

Baldanders is a self-made monster, and a reverse-image of
the ... oh, heck, I've forgotten their name ... the humans
who've had themselves decorticated so they don't have to
be human anymore? In the forest near Little Severian's
house? (Who are in their way also reverse-images of the
alzabo... There's a whole lot of mirroring goin' on in the Urth
sequence.) They have given up humanity in one direction;
Baldanders gives it up in the opposite direction, aiming at
"science" and knowledge ... yet becomes a creature of
primal passion in the end.

> In my view the primary difference between Abaia and the Baldanders
> we initially meet is that Abaia has been swallowed up by the waters
> of the past, and has consequently grown under the surface - exerting
> an influence while being only dimly understood and recognized by the
> people of Urth.

How much of an influence, I wonder, does he really have? What
is his function in the Ascian's system of governance, anyway?
Does he mind-control the Group of Seventeen? Or...

> As Talos says in that same section of Sword, "Surely you know that
> just as momentous events of the past cast their shadows down the
> ages, so now, when the sun is drawing toward the dark, our own
> shadows race into the past to trouble mankind's dream." Baldanders
> fails, as eventually he must anyway -

... I had always read this (including Baldanders's failure) as mostly
play upon the Frankenstein story, with perhaps a bit of "The Day the
Earth Stood Still" thrown in. ("No, you misunderstand. Gort is the
master." Michael Rennie might have made an excellent Severian,
come to think of it...)

> collapsing under his own weight for only so long - and takes his place
> under the water. The deluge that follows wipes the historical slate
> clean, leaving no apparent Abaia or Baldanders, only the primordial
> undines who themselves seem to be seen in a different light at that
> point.

I do wonder about this. Is there any specific (textual) reason to
suppose that the Megatherians, at least some of them, _don't_
survive the coming of the White Fountain? Thematically it makes
some sense, but it also makes thematic sense that at least some
_do_ survive -- such events never solve the big problems, only put
them on the back burner for a while. (Of course, it could be argued
that the Megatherians _aren't_ a big problem, only a symptom.)

--Dan'l

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 00:03:51 +0000

> whatever they had been briefed on, presumably by the Hierogrammates.

Severian could get around the time reversal problem by planning (and  
then remembering) to tell the Hierodules everything important on his  
meeting/their farewell day.  Then they would know everything by  
report from their first encounter with Severian.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 00:39:21 +0000

>to who's a monster and who isn't, part of the fiction of his

I agree that Baldanders was just a man, at least to start with. On the last
day of Urth, Severian saw him and thought he "was grown too large for me to
think him human ever again, his face heavier still and more misshapen, his
skin as white as that of the water woman who had once saved me from
drowning." (URTH, 302)

>survive the coming of the White Fountain?

None that I know of. As for Baldanders, just as the flood hit the throne
room, these were his final lines in the story: "I will not drown,"
Baldanders rumbled. "And the rest do not matter. Save yourself if you can."
(307)

That leads me to believe he had no particular reason to fear the flood, and
that he believed he would survive it. We know Juturna did. Why wouldn't he?
The water had been his home for fifty years.

-Roy

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From: maru dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 01:49:17 +0000

> On 5/18/06, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote:
....
> that the Megatherians _aren't_ a big problem, only a symptom.)

I'd say that unless we have specific textual evidence to the contrary,
we should assume they survived. After all, in the first flood, Noah
did not need to carry on the Ark two of each kind of fish. And didn't
Sev see one of the Undines in a ruined city in the sea?

~maru

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From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:26:13 +0000

> > _do_ survive --

Survive, yes; thrive, no. "Their power surpasses understanding, and I know 
now that they could crush us in a day if it were not that they count only 
enslavement, and not annihilation, as victory." So if a flood wiped out all 
of their current slaves (the Ascians), as well as most of their potential 
future ones (everyone else), they probably wouldn't even stay -- certainly, 
unless they were irretrievably stranded, they would have little reason to 
prolong their mission.

M

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 04:51:37 +0000

pthwndxrclzp wrote:

> Wow. Now I'm *really* confused. I don't have text references available, 
> but I always thought it was axiomatic that Baldanders was a baby Abaia 
> -- and as such, an alien infant dropped or otherwise delivered to Urth. 
> Obviously, that could be wrong, but I can't recall a single indication 
> that he was originally a human being. Quite the opposite -- it seems 
> like Wolfe takes great pains to show us that Baldanders is something 
> very "other."

The question is more properly, "What sorts of things are Baldanders?" 
He isn't just one thing, and doesn't merely symbolize one thing. He's a 
tree, he's a man, he's a black magician who wants to take God's place.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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From: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 05:47:09 +0000

*Now* I understand why Wolfe was so fond of Jennifer Stevens' psychosexual
neofantasy Trash Sex Magic (he wrote the cover blurb).

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:55:31 +0000

>only because it fits the moral structures (and strictures) of the

Sure, the two assertions (about the nature of Abaia and Baldanders, 
respectively) don't necessarily stand together. On the other hand I think 
the case is relatively strong that even if Baldanders didn't start out as 
one of them, he nonetheless ends up with them. But again: who says that 
Abaia & co. started out the way they are now? The only thing we have about 
their origin is from a fairy tale, and even that...

But in any event I remember a very strong impression from my reading of 
those chapters of Lictor that the entire thing was verging on an overt 
metaphor for oppressive states - so much so that I considered the 
possibility that Wolfe intended us to see it as having been fictionalized by 
Severian. A little cautionary tale from the aspiring writer.

>_do_ survive

Well, I did simplify there. Thematically what makes the *most* sense, given 
the cyclical nature of the timeline (presented in Eschatology & Genesis and 
hinted at by the Hierodules), is that they survive in a sense, but as seeds 
that will grow over time (in the same way the originals supposedly did). 
This also has the advantage of adding a little sense to Talos's comment I 
quoted earlier - their proximity to the end of the cycle means that their 
echoes will reach the "past" similar to the way things past echo into the 
future.

The fact that the undines are present both at the beginning and the end of 
the cycle I think points to an important difference between them and the 
megatherians. I do not read them as simply the creatures or servants of 
Abaia.