{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4598", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4598, "subject": "17 megatherians", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-05-19T01:30:11+00:00", "last": "2006-06-02T02:58:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T01:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are theories on why the number 17 might be important as a significant \nand/or evil number to Gene Wolfe in BotNS. Because Noah's flood happened on \n'February' 17? Because Gene Wolf was in the 17th company (or some other \nmilitary division) in Korea? These aren't compelling to me.\n\nSince the Ascians, the slaves of Erebus, have often been compared to \ncommunist/socialist societies (Group of 17, Gang Of Four?), the possibility \nof a 17 member Politburo as inspiration is appealing. I think there is \ncircumstantial evidence to suggest Wolfe is no fan of communism. But my \nresearch suggests the typical politburo membership was 12-15 in the USSR \nand 7 for the equivalent in China. Why pick 17 to be important?\n\nNow, Abaia and Erebus are clearly the primary megatherians. To me, Abaia \nwith his vast bulk and network of agents might invoke the USSR while Erebus \nwith billions of slaves who all look alike and quote from a book of stock \nphrases might invoke China. Of course these two nations were the major \ncommunist powers in the 70's. Perhaps the other megatherians represent the \nother established communist nations existing in some degree of collaboration \nor servitude to the major two at the time of BotNS's writing.\n\nMy list of those nations would be Cuba, E. Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, \nHungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania, Mongolia, N. Korea, Viet \nNam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma. 15. + 2.\n\nI know this list is an easy target for the sarcohamphi but, well...the 17 \nhad to come from somewhere and this might be it. Without the New Sun would \nwe have had to add the People's Republic of Baldanders? ugh.\n\nInteresting that Wolfe chose to have the Ascians originate from what is \nprobably the current USA.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060519022937.0A580DA840@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T02:29:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 19 May 2006 11:30:11 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nNow, Abaia and Erebus are clearly the primary megatherians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never understood why people assume this. \"Megatherians\" = \"Big \nanimals\". Why think of Abaia, Erebus et al as \"animals\"? \n\nOn the other hand, I suppose you could think of the \"Group of 17\" \nas composed of 17 individuals each under the control of a different \n\"megatherian\". But to me it's a red herring." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E036CBE-E825-46CB-AB6D-5893277F663D@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T03:14:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 18, 2006, at 8:30 PM, b sharp wrote:\nThere are theories on why the number 17 might be important as a \nsignificant\nand/or evil number to Gene Wolfe in BotNS. Because Noah's flood \nhappened on\n'February' 17? Because Gene Wolf was in the 17th company (or some \nother\nmilitary division) in Korea? These aren't compelling to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the number used to mean \"infinite\" by the Minotaur in the Borges \nstory \"The House of Asterion.\"\n\n\"Group of Seventeen\" thus becomes \"Everyone\"--quite literally The \nWill of The People.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T03:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "<4E036CBE-E825-46CB-AB6D-5893277F663D@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thalassocrat expresses:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've never understood why people assume this. \"Megatherians\" = \"Big \nanimals\". Why think of Abaia, Erebus et al as \"animals\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, I suppose you could think of the \"Group of 17\" as \ncomposed of 17 individuals each under the control of a different \n\"megatherian\". But to me it's a red herring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I use the megatherian term as a convention only, is there an alternate term? \nSo Thalassocrat is of the school who feel \"they\" (is it even 17?) are human? \n I profess no strong stance at this juncture. However, Abaia is refered to \nas \"great beast\" is he not?\n\nAnd Wikipedia chimes in with- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therian)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Therian in the English language has two distinct definitions:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-In taxonomy, the term refers to a member of Theria, a subclass of advanced \nmammals. -In anthropology and in certain psychological/spiritual \nsubcultures, therian refers to a variety of >otherkin who identify with \nanimals or shapeshifters; a person who believes in, possesses some \ncharacteristics of, or subscribes to the spiritual or shamanic (not the \nfolkloric) definition of >therianthropy or who belongs to the therianthropy \nsubculture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ooh I like the idea of Wolfe using of a bit of both of those definitions but \nthat second one..whew! It happens over and over. Is he a genius or what? \nBut I think we are getting somewhere....piece by piece....\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000801c67afe$da83f240$f93ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-19T04:43:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nSince the Ascians, the slaves of Erebus, have often been compared to\ncommunist/socialist societies (Group of 17, Gang Of Four?), the possibility\nof a 17 member Politburo as inspiration is appealing. I think there is\ncircumstantial evidence to suggest Wolfe is no fan of communism. But my\nresearch suggests the typical politburo membership was 12-15 in the USSR\nand 7 for the equivalent in China. Why pick 17 to be important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fwiw, according to M.A.-D. in LEXICON URTHUS, \"The number seventeen alludes\nto the Soviet politburo, which typically had seventeen members (eleven to\ntwelve full members and six to nine alternate members).\" (p-118)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maru dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T05:51:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "<4E036CBE-E825-46CB-AB6D-5893277F663D@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/06, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn May 18, 2006, at 8:30 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are theories on why the number 17 might be important as a\nsignificant\nand/or evil number to Gene Wolfe in BotNS. Because Noah's flood\nhappened on\n'February' 17? Because Gene Wolf was in the 17th company (or some\nother\nmilitary division) in Korea? These aren't compelling to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's the number used to mean \"infinite\" by the Minotaur in the Borges\nstory \"The House of Asterion.\"\n\n\"Group of Seventeen\" thus becomes \"Everyone\"--quite literally The\nWill of The People.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure about that, Adam? In my Collection Fictions, there are\nsome footnotes and interpolations mentioning that where the translator\nrendered as \"infinite\", Borges wrote in the Spanish, \"14\"- not \"17\".\n\n~maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T06:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2006, at 12:51 AM, maru dubshinki wrote:\nOn 5/18/06, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 18, 2006, at 8:30 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are theories on why the number 17 might be important as a\nsignificant\nand/or evil number to Gene Wolfe in BotNS. Because Noah's flood\nhappened on\n'February' 17? Because Gene Wolf was in the 17th company (or some\nother\nmilitary division) in Korea? These aren't compelling to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the number used to mean \"infinite\" by the Minotaur in the Borges\nstory \"The House of Asterion.\"\n\n\"Group of Seventeen\" thus becomes \"Everyone\"--quite literally The\nWill of The People.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you sure about that, Adam? In my Collection Fictions, there are\nsome footnotes and interpolations mentioning that where the translator\nrendered as \"infinite\", Borges wrote in the Spanish, \"14\"- not \"17\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that would certainly bugger up my theory.\n\nUm, I'll look tomorrow.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F81DEC1-B63F-424B-A6C4-C77B86CAE7B3@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-19T14:20:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2006, at 1:47 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn May 19, 2006, at 12:51 AM, maru dubshinki wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you sure about that, Adam? In my Collection Fictions, there are\nsome footnotes and interpolations mentioning that where the \ntranslator\nrendered as \"infinite\", Borges wrote in the Spanish, \"14\"- not \"17\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that would certainly bugger up my theory.\n\nUm, I'll look tomorrow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's 14.\n\nWell, it was a nice theory while it lasted.\n\nI guess that makes more sense: 14 is as high as the Minotaur can \ncount. Ten fingers, two hooves, two horns.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<446EA6D3.5090803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-20T05:19:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "<20060519022937.0A580DA840@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOn Fri, 19 May 2006 11:30:11 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, Abaia and Erebus are clearly the primary megatherians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've never understood why people assume this. \"Megatherians\" = \"Big \nanimals\". Why think of Abaia, Erebus et al as \"animals\"? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are \"great beasts\" with occult power, as Aleister Crowley styled \nhimself on occasion. Abaia and Erebus, being inhuman Things Man Was \nNot Meant to Know, also count as great beasts in a more literal sense." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<61899.67.137.156.200.1149202736.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2006-06-01T22:58:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "<4E036CBE-E825-46CB-AB6D-5893277F663D@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 18, 2006, at 8:30 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are theories on why the number 17 might be important ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's the number used to mean \"infinite\" by the Minotaur in the Borges\nstory \"The House of Asterion.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No it isn't.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-06-02T02:58:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 17 megatherians", "in_reply_to": "<61899.67.137.156.200.1149202736.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 1, 2006, at 5:58 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOn May 18, 2006, at 8:30 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are theories on why the number 17 might be important ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the number used to mean \"infinite\" by the Minotaur in the Borges\nstory \"The House of Asterion.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No it isn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it *should* be.\n\nMy theory would have succeeded, if it weren't for you meddling facts.\n\nAdam" } ] } ] }