Subject: (urth) 17 megatherians

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 01:30:11 +0000

There are theories on why the number 17 might be important as a significant 
and/or evil number to Gene Wolfe in BotNS.  Because Noah's flood happened on 
'February' 17?  Because Gene Wolf was in the 17th company (or some other 
military division) in Korea? These aren't compelling to me.

Since the Ascians, the slaves of Erebus, have often been compared to 
communist/socialist societies (Group of 17, Gang Of Four?), the possibility 
of a 17 member Politburo as inspiration is appealing.  I think there is 
circumstantial evidence to suggest Wolfe is no fan of communism.  But my 
research suggests the  typical politburo membership was 12-15 in the USSR 
and 7 for the equivalent in China. Why pick 17 to be important?

Now, Abaia and Erebus are clearly the primary megatherians.  To me, Abaia 
with his vast bulk and network of agents might invoke the USSR while Erebus 
with billions of slaves who all look alike and quote from a book of stock 
phrases might invoke China. Of course these two nations were the major 
communist powers in the 70's.  Perhaps the other megatherians represent the 
other established communist nations existing in some degree of collaboration 
or servitude to the major two at the time of BotNS's writing.

My list of those nations would be Cuba, E. Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, 
Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania, Mongolia, N. Korea, Viet 
Nam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma. 15.  + 2.

I know this list is an easy target for the sarcohamphi but, well...the 17 
had to come from somewhere and this might be it. Without the New Sun would 
we have had to add the People's Republic of Baldanders? ugh.

Interesting that Wolfe chose to have the Ascians originate from what is 
probably the current USA.

-bsharp

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 02:29:32 +0000

On Fri, 19 May 2006 11:30:11 +1000 b sharp 
<bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Now, Abaia and Erebus are clearly the primary megatherians.

I've never understood why people assume this. "Megatherians" = "Big 
animals". Why think of Abaia, Erebus et al as "animals"? 

On the other hand, I suppose you could think of the "Group of 17" 
as composed of 17 individuals each under the control of a different 
"megatherian". But to me it's a red herring.

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 03:14:13 +0000

> military division) in Korea? These aren't compelling to me.

It's the number used to mean "infinite" by the Minotaur in the Borges  
story "The House of Asterion."

"Group of Seventeen" thus becomes "Everyone"--quite literally The  
Will of The People.

Adam

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 03:27:21 +0000

>On the other hand, I suppose you could think of the "Group of 17" as 
>composed of 17 individuals each under the control of a different 

I use the megatherian term as a convention only, is there an alternate term? 
So Thalassocrat is of the school who feel "they" (is it even 17?) are human? 
  I profess no strong stance at this juncture.  However, Abaia is refered to 
as "great beast" is he not?

And Wikipedia chimes in with-  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therian)

>Therian in the English language has two distinct definitions:

>-In taxonomy, the term refers to a member of Theria, a subclass of advanced 
>mammals. -In anthropology and in certain psychological/spiritual 
>subcultures, therian refers to a variety of >otherkin who identify with 
>animals or shapeshifters; a person who believes in, possesses some 
> >characteristics of, or subscribes to the spiritual or shamanic (not the 
>folkloric) definition of >therianthropy or who belongs to the therianthropy 
>subculture.

ooh I like the idea of Wolfe using of a bit of both of those definitions but 
that second one..whew!  It happens over and over.  Is he a genius or what?  
But I think we are getting somewhere....piece by piece....

-bsharp

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 04:43:58 +0000

>and 7 for the equivalent in China. Why pick 17 to be important?

Fwiw, according to M.A.-D. in LEXICON URTHUS, "The number seventeen alludes
to the Soviet politburo, which typically had seventeen members (eleven to
twelve full members and six to nine alternate members)." (p-118)

-Roy

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From: maru dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 05:51:11 +0000

> "Group of Seventeen" thus becomes "Everyone"--quite literally The

Are you sure about that, Adam? In my Collection Fictions, there are
some footnotes and interpolations mentioning that where the translator
rendered as "infinite", Borges wrote in the Spanish, "14"- not "17".

~maru

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 06:47:58 +0000

> rendered as "infinite", Borges wrote in the Spanish, "14"- not "17".

Well, that would certainly bugger up my theory.

Um, I'll look tomorrow.

Adam

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:20:40 +0000

> Well, that would certainly bugger up my theory.

It's 14.

Well, it was a nice theory while it lasted.

I guess that makes more sense: 14 is as high as the Minotaur can  
count.  Ten fingers, two hooves, two horns.

Adam

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 05:19:15 +0000

> animals". Why think of Abaia, Erebus et al as "animals"? 

They are "great beasts" with occult power, as Aleister Crowley styled 
himself on occasion.   Abaia and Erebus, being inhuman Things Man Was 
Not Meant to Know, also count as great beasts in a more literal sense.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:58:56 +0000

>> There are theories on why the number 17 might be important ...

> story "The House of Asterion."

No it isn't.

.

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:58:37 +0000

>> story "The House of Asterion."

Well, it *should* be.

My theory would have succeeded, if it weren't for you meddling facts.

Adam