{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4609", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4609, "subject": "Borski and cacogens", "messages": 20, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-05-22T14:43:17+00:00", "last": "2006-05-24T14:47:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-22T14:43:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read Robert Borski's Solar Labyrinth and was both pleased and \ndisappointed. I was pleased with most of the thoughtful and scholarly \nanalysis. I was disappointed that it took the form of a collection of \nessays copied mostly verbatim from his other publishings (and postings) \nwithout much attempt to form a cohesive, explanatory narrative to hold it \nall together. This disappointment inspired a search which led to my \ndiscovery of this archive. I noticed Borski had posted portions or full \nversions of his Solar Labyrinth essays in this archive. He revceived \ncriticisms and suggestions but they seemed largely ignored in his book.\n\nI was pleased that in his section on Father Inire he took a step back and \noffered the grand view that BotNS is really the story of Inire (and The \nCumaen and their children, Famulimus and Barbatus). They toil behind the \nscenes for 1000 years, moving backward in time to save humanity. In fact he \nsuggests that Moses-like Inire is a more heroic savior than Jesus-like \nSeverian in that Inire dedicates most of his long life to achieving a \nsalvation for others he himself will never see (Robert, I have to ask..are \nyou Jewish? ;-)).\n\nFWIW I'll offer my own suggestions on this topic. Severian observes that \ncacogens are considered one class or caste on earth but that they probably \nhave their own races and divisions. I see two distinct types among those \nSeverian meets:\n\n1. includes Father Inire and the Cumean (perhaps Hethor). They appear as \nsmall, old, twisted people, usually hooded. They are associated with animals \nand probably have the ablility to shapeshift (who does this evoke from 5th \nHead?). They have the ability to instantaneously transcend distance but not \ntime, with mirrors, perhaps other devices and clairvoyance. (I suspect the \nCumean needed Severian, in the seance, to transcend time). They live on \nUrth and provide its denizens with direct services such as a Botanical \nGarden, a Secret House Absolute and an Oracle.\n\n2. includes Famulimus and Barbatus. They appear as very tall, young and \nunnaturally beautiful. They are associated with angels (Tzadkiel). They \nshow no shapeshifting ability and wear masks around humans. They have the \nability to travel in time but need spaceships to traverse distance. They \nprovide Baldanders with knowledge and machinery which can't be duplicated on \nUrth. They live in space ships and stay separate from humanity.\n\n(I'm not sure if Juturna fits best as a combination of these two or as part \nof a distinct race)\n\nThere are some suggestions these two groups do work together. In his letter \nto the new Autarch, Inire says he hopes his \"cousins\" will be decide to \nprovide them more weaponry for the Ascian war and that they will finally \nrecognize the Commonwealth as the best and truest representation of Urth.\n\nBorski thinks Ossipago is Father Inire in disguise, inside a semi-robotic \nsuit. Perhaps this is true. Just before he meets F, B and O, Severian sees \na spaceship above Baldanders' castle with blobs of orange light going up and \ndown. We later learn the orange light teleports people up and down from the \nship. Wolfe very pointedly has Severian see two blobs of orange light \nappear just before he enters the castle. Two, not three.\n\nHere is a question I've not seen posed before: Severian sees Jonas uses \nFather Inire's mirrors to travel to the stars and presumably a spaceship \n(The Spaceship?). The old autarch, Appian, also shows Severian the way to \nreach Tzadkiel and New Sun testing is through mirrors (in a giant book, \"go \nif you dare\"). So why does Severian use spaceships instead of mirrors to \nreach his destination in Urth of the New Sun?\n\nThe mirrors are highly associated with bestial creatures while the spacehips \nseem the products of more angelic creatures. Perhaps this choice helped \nSeverian pass his test while Appian, using mirrors, failed.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060522170617.80025.qmail@web51112.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-22T17:06:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I see two" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "distinct types among those \nSeverian meets:\n\n1. includes Father Inire and the Cumean (perhaps\nHethor). They appear as \nsmall, old, twisted people, usually hooded. They are\nassociated with animals \nand probably have the ablility to shapeshift (who\ndoes this evoke from 5th \nHead?). They have the ability to instantaneously\ntranscend distance but not \ntime, with mirrors, perhaps other devices and\nclairvoyance. (I suspect the \nCumean needed Severian, in the seance, to transcend\ntime). They live on \nUrth and provide its denizens with direct services\nsuch as a Botanical \nGarden, a Secret House Absolute and an Oracle.\n\n2. includes Famulimus and Barbatus. They appear as\nvery tall, young and \nunnaturally beautiful. They are associated with\nangels (Tzadkiel). They \nshow no shapeshifting ability and wear masks around\nhumans. They have the \nability to travel in time but need spaceships to\ntraverse distance. They \nprovide Baldanders with knowledge and machinery\nwhich can't be duplicated on \nUrth. They live in space ships and stay separate\nfrom humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes us think Father Inire and the Cumean have\nthe ability to shapeshift? It's not clear to me that\nFather Inire and the Cumean travel time, or\nsimply choose not to. On the contrary, there's some\ninfo to suggest they do know how to travel time, even\nif they don't do it themselves -- how else could FI\nconstruct the Botanical Gardens, with its\ntime-twisting abilities? If they cannot, that also may\nhave something to do with the availability of\ntechnology -- both Inire and the Cumean seem to\noperate with less access to so-called Stellar\ntechnology than F,B, and O.\n\nAnd what makes us think that FI and the C aren't\nwearing masks? I would think they are, and I seem to\nrecall at some point (1) Sev mentions that fact about\nFI, and (2) reports seeing the image of some kind of\nalien, multi-eyed serpent superimposed over the\nCumean's outward guise as old woman.\n\nAlso, I think its accurate to say that F,B and O seem\nto use ships for both distance and time -- unless you\nare referring to them living backwards, which is no\nmore a form of time travel than our living forwards.\n\nAnd I don't think it's correct to say that the\ncacogens stay separate from humanity -- on the\ncontrary they seem to be regular visitors at the House\nAbsolute -- so much so that they need scary masks to\nkeep humanity from getting to familiar or dependent on\nthem.\n\nOTOH, one additional difference btw the two groups you\nidentify is their apparent longevity -- hasn't Father\nInire served multiple Autarchs, such that his years\nare beyond those normal for cacogens? And hasn't the\nCumean served the witches for a similarly long period?\n\nAnother apparent difference is that FI and the C seem\nto be living forwards -- they show none of the signs\nF, B and O do of living in reverse. On this point,\nit's hard to imagine how Inire could supervise\nconstruction of the gardens and the secret House if\nevery day he forgot what he did the day before.\n\nAs for why Sev takes the ship, I think it has less to\ndo with the symbolism of this being an angelic form of\ntransport and much more to do with the fact that his\npassage on the ship gives him the opportunity to prove\nto Tzadkiel that Urth should be redeemed. Tzadkiel\nuses the voyage to familiarize herself with Sev and\nhis morals by appearing to him on the ship in various\nforms (apport, Zak the crewman, the false epitome of\nUrth, etc.).\n\nLastly, your post reminds me of a couple of\nlong-standing questions:\n\n1) FI is performing clear services for humanity and\nhas chosen a seemingly appropriate position to do so\nat the center of the Commonwealth's administration. \nWhat is the Cumean doing for humanity? How does her\ninteraction with the obscure Witches' guild or her\nequally obscure presence in a disused part of the\nBotanical Gardens help redeem humanity? Or is she\naround for some entirely different reason?\n\n2) Wolfe at one point suggests that the Commonwealth\ntrades in human slaves in exchange for the\nStellar-level technology they receive. What do the\ncacogens do with those humans they take?\n\nThanks for your patience if you have read to the end\nof this.\n\nMacronaut" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-22T18:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<20060522170617.80025.qmail@web51112.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for your patience if you have read to the end\nof this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Macronaut" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Macronaut you DO pose a large number of questions which I appreciate! I did \nhave the patience to read through them all, though I'm not sure anyone else \nwill want to ;-). I think I can answer most of them, though some I may have \nto defer to a new, separate post. I think you answer some yourself though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes us think Father Inire and the Cumean have the ability to \nshapeshift? And what makes >us think that FI and the C aren't wearing \nmasks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you note, the Cumaean, when seen in 4 dimensions by Severian, really has \nthe form of a headless (or endlessly long) snake with many faces on her \nback. I don't think any mask would make THAT look like an old woman. \nRegarding Father Inirie, Borski identifies him as making many secret \nappearances. In the two most obvious (servitor guides Severian to Green \nRoom; guide with monkeyhead pole in the jungle) he is wearing a hood. I \nthink he makes some other appearances that Borski misses in which his face \n(shapeshifted) is showing. As The Cumaean is snake-like, so I think Inire \nis monkey-like. Note in the Jungle room of the Botanical Garden both a \nsnake and a monkey are encountered. But more on that in later posts.\n\nOn the Cumaean and Inire focused more on traversing distance than time: \nThis was an off the cuff thought which may not be defendable. But we are \ntold explicitly that F, B and O travel in time we don't know this to be true \nof Inire and The Cumaean. But they seem to have ways to suddenly appear \nhere and there and tools to allow others to do so, also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I don't think it's correct to say that the cacogens stay separate from \nhumanity -- on the\ncontrary they seem to be regular visitors at the House Absolute>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "F, B and O make a rare appearance at the House Absolute to see a very \nspecial performance by their favorite person, in his earlier years. \nOtherwise they keep completely separate from humanity. In Baldanders' \ncastle, they make it clear the Lake people cannot enter until they leave. \nThey show similar avoidance of humans on Ship Tzadkiel and in the ancient \nStone Town of Apu Punchau.\n\nOn their lifespans: It is Baldanders who says F, B and O have a 20 year \nlifespan (like dogs, lol). Later Severian comments on how much longer \nFather Inire has lived than the lifespan of his shortlived species. How \nmight he be prolonging his life? Consider the Cumaean's namesake in \nGreek/Roman mythology. She was: (a sybil, connection to Long Sun surely \nintended)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the prophetic old women of Greek mythology; she guided Aeneas through Hades \nin the Aeneid. >She had been granted immortality by Apollo, but because she \nforgot to ask for perpetual youth, >she shrank into withered old age and \nher authority \ndeclined.>http://members.chello.nl/~a.vanarum8/EliotProject/Waste_notes/Sibyl.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On F, B and O's time sense: I think it has previously been successfully \nargued that they only travel backward in time. They can't perceive time \nbackward or they couldn't even have a conversation. To them the previous \nsentence would appear as: .noitaservnoc a evah neve t'ndluoc yeht ro \ndrawkcab emit eviecrep t'nac yehT. But they do travel always backward in \ntime while there is no evidence I know of that Inire and The Cumaean do.\n\nRegarding Severian's choice of pathway to the stars:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for why Sev takes the ship, I think it has less to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "do with the symbolism of this being an angelic form of\ntransport and much more to do with the fact that his\npassage on the ship gives him the opportunity to prove\nto Tzadkiel that Urth should be redeemed. Tzadkiel\nuses the voyage to familiarize herself with Sev and\nhis morals by appearing to him on the ship in various\nforms (apport, Zak the crewman, the false epitome of\nUrth, etc.).>\n\nExactly! If Severian had taken the mirrors he would have missed all that. \nImagine Appian taking the mirrors, sitting down at a celestial table to do a \nfew multiple choice and T/F questions. In Foila's story she asks which path \nto take, the shortest or the best? Choose the angel's path over the \nbeasties, because they are closer to God.\n\nNext question is a good one-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is the Cumean doing for humanity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I know but would like to answer that in another (but soon \nforthcoming) post.\n\nLastly:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe at one point suggests that the Commonwealth\ntrades in human slaves in exchange for the\nStellar-level technology they receive. What do the\ncacogens do with those humans they take?>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have not seen or noted this suggestion. Now Typhon makes it clear he \nwould do interstallar trade in slaves but I assume that's not what you \nmean. Could you point me to the reference? It's possible I have an \nanswer....\n\nOkay, I think that addresses everything. How did I do????\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-22T19:09:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "p.s. Regarding regular visits of F, B and O to the House Absolute, if you \nmean to Severian, after he is autarch then I think they must be private \naudience of one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060522151706.K7738-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2006-05-22T19:25:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear b sharp:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 22 May 2006, b sharp wrote:\nConsider the Cumaean's namesake\nin Greek/Roman mythology. She\nwas: (a sybil, connection to\nLong Sun surely intended)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely not. Long Sun wasn't published until\na decade after New Sun, as originally planned\n(i.e., without _Urth_), was complete. It may\nbe the case that the use of \"sibyl\" in Long\nSun is a deliberate reference to the Cumaean,\nbut it seems very unlikely that Wolfe was sow-\ning seeds for Long Sun when he wrote the\nCumaean.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maru dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T00:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 5/22/06, b sharp wrote:\n...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you note, the Cumaean, when seen in 4 dimensions by Severian, really has\nthe form of a headless (or endlessly long) snake with many faces on her\nback. I don't think any mask would make THAT look like an old woman.\nRegarding Father Inirie, Borski identifies him as making many secret\nappearances. In the two most obvious (servitor guides Severian to Green\nRoom; guide with monkeyhead pole in the jungle) he is wearing a hood. I\nthink he makes some other appearances that Borski misses in which his face\n(shapeshifted) is showing. As The Cumaean is snake-like, so I think Inire\nis monkey-like. Note in the Jungle room of the Botanical Garden both a\nsnake and a monkey are encountered. But more on that in later posts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "....." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, I think that addresses everything. How did I do????\n\n-bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you think the Cumaean was a single really weird hierodule? Funny-\nI'd always took it as a message that this was a single entity who\ninhabited multiple humans over time (the many faces and continuous\nsnake), possibly in an Autarch-way of eating the brain. One wonders\nwhat Autarch Sev would look like....\n\n~maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T00:18:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Millman writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may be the case that the use of \"sibyl\" in Long Sun is a deliberate \nreference to the Cumaean,\nbut it seems very unlikely that Wolfe was sowing seeds for Long Sun when he \nwrote the >Cumaean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think some Wolfe worshipers have the idea that he had Wizard Knight \nmentally complete before he wrote Island of Doctor Death.\n\nBut when I mention the connection of the sibyls (sorry@ prev. spelling) in \nLong Sun to BotNS I meant the backward, not forward connection. That is \nmuch easier to defend and much less speculative since the previous work can \nbe demonstrated to be in existence during the writing of the later work.\n\nFor this same reason I am much more prone to noting the connections of BotNS \nto 5th Head of Cerberus than later works.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060523003613.P7738-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2006-05-23T04:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear b sharp,\n\nPlease forgive my misunderstanding your\npoint. I appreciate this clarification,\nand your patience with my misapprehen-\nsion.\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 22 May 2006, b sharp wrote:\nMark Millman writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It may be the case\nthat the use of\n\"sibyl\" in Long Sun\nis a deliberate\nreference to the\nCumaean, but it\nseems very unlikely\nthat Wolfe was sow-\ning seeds for Long\nSun when he wrote\nthe Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think some Wolfe worshipers\nhave the idea that he had Wizard\nKnight mentally complete before\nhe wrote Island of Doctor Death.\n\nBut when I mention the connec-\ntion of the sibyls (sorry@ prev.\nspelling) in Long Sun to BotNS I\nmeant the backward, not forward\nconnection. That is much easier\nto defend and much less specula-\ntive since the previous work can\nbe demonstrated to be in exist-\nence during the writing of the\nlater work.\n\nFor this same reason I am much\nmore prone to noting the connec-\ntions of BotNS to 5th Head of\nCerberus than later works.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c67e43$c875a6a0$c53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-23T08:34:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<20060523003613.P7738-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Macronaut wrote:\nAnother apparent difference is that FI and the C seem\nto be living forwards -- they show none of the signs\nF, B and O do of living in reverse. On this point,\nit's hard to imagine how Inire could supervise\nconstruction of the gardens and the secret House if\nevery day he forgot what he did the day before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nOn F, B and O's time sense: I think it has previously been successfully\nargued that they only travel backward in time. They can't perceive time\nbackward or they couldn't even have a conversation. To them the previous\nsentence would appear as: .noitaservnoc a evah neve t'ndluoc yeht ro\ndrawkcab emit eviecrep t'nac yehT." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regardless of how they personally cope with their temporal backwardness when\ninteracting with normal people, the fact remains, as I pointed out about a\nweek ago in the \"Baldanders\" thread, from the viewpoint of forward-living\nentities, they know less and less as time goes on. Just revisit their first\nmeeting with Severian on the Ship to see it.\n\nOne of Ossipago's primary baby-sitting functions may have been to serve as a\ndata source/timekeeper for his charges, allowing them to interact with those\nwho experienced time conventionally. As a machine with sensors and a\ndata-storage and retrieval system, he must have experienced the flow of time\nin a clockwise fashion.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T11:41:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<001001c67e43$c875a6a0$c53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regardless of how they personally cope with their temporal backwardness \nwhen\ninteracting with normal people, the fact remains, as I pointed out about a\nweek ago in the \"Baldanders\" thread, from the viewpoint of forward-living\nentities, they know less and less as time goes on. Just revisit their first\nmeeting with Severian on the Ship to see it.>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, F, B and O know less and less as OUR time passes. We know less and \nless as their time passes. They know the most in Apu Punchau's time.\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of Ossipago's primary baby-sitting functions may have been to serve as \na\ndata source/timekeeper for his charges, allowing them to interact with \nthose\nwho experienced time conventionally. As a machine with sensors and a\ndata-storage and retrieval system, he must have experienced the flow of \ntime\nin a clockwise fashion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This contradicts the \"Ossipago is Inire\" theory, which is fine with me. But \nany thoughts on why Severian, before he enters Baldanders' castle, sees one \norange blob teleport up to the spaceship, then only two ready to teleport \ndown, just before he meets F, B and O for the (his) first time?\n\n(the boring answer to the photo question is that it is merely the product of \na image web search using the key words \"embarassed face\") I think there is \nonly one picture of me posted online, me playing saxophone.)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T12:15:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "maru writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you think the Cumaean was a single really weird hierodule? Funny-\nI'd always took it as a message that this was a single entity who\ninhabited multiple humans over time (the many faces and continuous\nsnake), possibly in an Autarch-way of eating the brain. One wonders\nwhat Autarch Sev would look like...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Wolfe specifically identifies Inire and The Cumaean as cacogens in \none of his appendices, but I like your idea! It fits well with my upcoming \npost on the purpose of The Cumaean and witches.\n\nIn Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five, the Tralfamadorians can see in four \ndimensions, that is all of time simultaneously. So to them, a human being \nlooks like a long caterpillar with a baby's legs at the back and an old \nperson's head at the front. Something similar for The Cumaean?\n\nIf we take a mythological point of view (as Wolfe seems happy to, at least \nin part) we could say in simple terms that there are three basic sorts of \nbeings:\n\n Beast Man God(s).\n\nMagical creatures are usually found in the spaces between. In modern times \nand modern mythology (SF, Fantasy?) we can add Machine to that Trinity, \nthough there are rare examples of them in ancient myths (the Greek Talos, \nfor example, perhaps the Golem is another).\n\nSo I wouldn't call The Cumaean (or Inire) Hierodules because they have \nbestial associations (and may be capable of rather beastial behavior.). \nThey are ugly and can scare small children (Domnina) when they smile. The \nHierodules or \"holy slaves\" seem to inhabit the space between human and \nangel (or arch-angel as Tzadkiel's name suggests). They are inhumanly \nbeautiful and are so pure we aren't even supposed to discuss slime around \nthem.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c67e8f$37add4c0$983ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-23T17:34:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nSo I wouldn't call The Cumaean (or Inire) Hierodules because they have\nbestial associations (and may be capable of rather beastial behavior.).\nThey are ugly and can scare small children (Domnina) when they smile. The\nHierodules or \"holy slaves\" seem to inhabit the space between human and\nangel (or arch-angel as Tzadkiel's name suggests). They are inhumanly\nbeautiful and are so pure we aren't even supposed to discuss slime around\nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cacogen is a derogatory general term used on Urth to indicate all non-human\naliens. Not all cacogens belong to the same species. Not all \"holy slaves\"\nneed belong to the same species. Inire and the Cumaean are in fact\nHierodules.\n\n\"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.\"\n Famulimus and Barbatus nodded.\" (URTH, 357)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-23T22:45:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<001001c67e8f$37add4c0$983ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cacogen is a derogatory general term used on Urth to indicate all non-human\naliens. Not all cacogens belong to the same species. Not all \"holy slaves\"\nneed belong to the same species. Inire and the Cumaean are in fact\nHierodules.\n\"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.\"\n Famulimus and Barbatus nodded.\" (URTH, 357)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good catch Roy and good analysis.\nIt is the in the appendix of Claw where Wolfe tells us they are both \ncacogens. But since I'm in a priggish mood I'll increase the precision and \nobserve that text tells us that The Cumaean is a hierodule but not Inire. So \nshe, at least, is both cacogen and hierodule.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605231703ndd8ce26j4a3cfd865d85086d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T00:03:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/23/06, b sharp wrote:\n\"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > Famulimus and Barbatus nodded.\" (URTH, 357)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that text tells us that The Cumaean is a hierodule but not Inire. So\nshe, at least, is both cacogen and hierodule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Both cacogen and hierodule\" is like saying \"both vertebrate and\nmammalian.\" The latter implies the former.\n\nYou are right, of course, that the text leaves the hierosity of\nFather Inire rather ambiguous. The question is -- are there\nany human-scale cacogens on Urth who are _not_ Hierish?\nIf so, who are they and how do we know?\n\n--Dan'l\nsuddenly I feel like singing \"When Hierish Eyes are Smiling\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T00:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605231703ndd8ce26j4a3cfd865d85086d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL@ Hierish eyes smiling. For shadow children it is, \"hey there, you with \nthe stars in your eyes\".\n\nanyway Dan'l says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is -- are there\nany human-scale cacogens on Urth who are _not_ Hierish?\nIf so, who are they and how do we know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Robert Borski would say we can know them (cacogens)when they have \nmythological names and/or hide their eyes. Maybe also when we suspect they \nare shape shifters or to use the other Wolfe word for that: \"therians\". No I \ndon't think all the therians are mega.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605231744o75cfeeb7q2a0b8b4894bb2621@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T00:44:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. The question was bait and I got switched! I guess I was\ntrying to see if, for example, anyone would suggest the\nalzabo as a cacogen: certainly, a case can be made.\n\nWhat human-scale \"therians\" can you point to?\n\n--Dan'l\n...and the Claw of the Conciliator turned out to be a\nthorn from \"My Wild Hierish Rose.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4473D519.4050907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T03:38:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605231744o75cfeeb7q2a0b8b4894bb2621@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nHeh. The question was bait and I got switched! I guess I was\ntrying to see if, for example, anyone would suggest the\nalzabo as a cacogen: certainly, a case can be made.\n\nWhat human-scale \"therians\" can you point to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The various human-animal hybrids serving the autarch, from the mastiff \nmen in the coach full of gold, to the anpiels, and perhaps even the \nape-men in the mine at Saltus." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001801c67efc$776b0ac0$793ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-24T06:36:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<4473D519.4050907@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the beginning of this thread, b sharp wrote:\nBorski thinks Ossipago is Father Inire in disguise, inside a semi-robotic\nsuit. Perhaps this is true. Just before he meets F, B and O, Severian\nsees\na spaceship above Baldanders' castle with blobs of orange light going up\nand\ndown. We later learn the orange light teleports people up and down from the\nship. Wolfe very pointedly has Severian see two blobs of orange light\nappear just before he enters the castle. Two, not three." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in a follow-up:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This contradicts the \"Ossipago is Inire\" theory, which is fine with me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "any thoughts on why Severian, before he enters Baldanders' castle, sees one\norange blob teleport up to the spaceship, then only two ready to teleport\ndown, just before he meets F, B and O for the (his) first time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see the point of this, but this is the text in question:\n\n\"The misty light of the moon, the younger sister's kiss upon the face of her\ndying elder, shone on the upper surface of that huge disk. Beneath it, in\nits thick shadow, gleamed sparks of orange light. They moved, gliding up or\ndown, though their movement was so slow that I had watched them for some\ntime before I was conscious of it. Eventually, one rose until it appeared to\nbe immediately under the disk and vanished, and just before we came to\nshore, two more appeared in the same spot.\" (SWORD, chapter XXXII)\n\nThe \"sparks of orange light\", seen from a distance, were the crewmen, the\n\"mermen\" mentioned in the quote someone gave the other day (chapter XXXV,\nfirst paragraph), moving around on the hull. There were obviously more than\nthree of them. What difference does it make if one went up and two came\ndown? All three Hierodules were inside the castle when Severian entered. One\nof the \"mermen\" made an appearance at a castle window while they were\ntalking. One showed himself, \"wreathed in orange light\", on the hull just\nbefore B, F and O went back to the ship. They ascended by using a slender\nline that was \"glowing orange\". The \"mermen\" didn't use the orange line to\nget about on the hull, but they probably used it to reach the castle, 35\nfeet below the ship. I doubt if Ossipago, even without his human costume,\ncould have crawled around on the hull.\n\nAt any rate, if B, F and O glowed orange while going up to the ship,\nSeverian failed to note it. I don't see any reason to suppose a particular\nconnection of the three \"sparks of orange light\" in question to B, F and\nO -- if that is what you are trying to do.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301c67efc$feba04e0$793ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-24T06:40:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<001801c67efc$776b0ac0$793ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp quoted Macronaut and wrote:\nWolfe at one point suggests that the Commonwealth\ntrades in human slaves in exchange for the\nStellar-level technology they receive. What do the\ncacogens do with those humans they take?>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have not seen or noted this suggestion. Now Typhon makes it clear he \nwould do interstallar trade in slaves but I assume that's not what you \nmean. Could you point me to the reference? It's possible I have an \nanswer...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's in the Appendix to CITADEL.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060524144731.59336.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-24T14:47:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borski and cacogens (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<002301c67efc$feba04e0$793ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nWolfe at one point suggests that the Commonwealth\ntrades in human slaves in exchange for the\nStellar-level technology they receive. What do\nthe\ncacogens do with those humans they take?>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have two ideas about this (if I may propose an\nanswer to my own question). My preferred theory is\nthat no harm is done to them -- they are welcomed into\nHeirodule society and raised in that culture and\ntechnology, and possibly even interbreed. Master Ash\nprovides evidence that this happens -- reading Sev's\ndescription of him it becomes clear that he has traits\nin common both of humans and of heirodules, and he\ndescribes their saving humanity (at least some of it)\nfrom the encroaching ice of his future. The other\nreason this fits for me is Christian symbolism: the\nmost wretchedly treated on earth are the ones admitted\nto the peaceful technological paradise of the\nheirodules. The heirodule practice of buying slaves\nalso serves as a barometer for man's moral development\nin the Commonwealth: if people are still willing to\nsell slaves, then mankind is not yet ready for\nredemption. The real interesting piece of evidence I\nwould love to find is something indicating that Sev\ndiscontinued this practice during his urthly reign.\n\nAnyway, the more mundane explanation is that they are\nused as crew on Tzadkiel's ship. \n\nMacronaut" } ] } ] }