Subject: (urth) Borski and cacogens

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:43:17 +0000

I read Robert Borski's Solar Labyrinth and was both pleased and 
disappointed.  I was pleased with most of the thoughtful and scholarly 
analysis.  I was disappointed that it took the form of a collection of 
essays copied mostly verbatim from his other publishings (and postings) 
without much attempt to form a cohesive, explanatory narrative to hold it 
all together.  This disappointment inspired a search which led to my 
discovery of this archive.  I noticed Borski had posted portions or full 
versions of his Solar Labyrinth essays in this archive.  He revceived 
criticisms and suggestions but they seemed largely ignored in his book.

I was pleased that in his section on Father Inire he took a step back and 
offered the grand view that BotNS is really the story of Inire (and The 
Cumaen and their children, Famulimus and Barbatus).  They toil behind the 
scenes for 1000 years, moving backward in time to save humanity.  In fact he 
suggests that Moses-like Inire is a more heroic savior than Jesus-like 
Severian in that Inire dedicates most of his long life to achieving a 
salvation for others he himself will never see (Robert, I have to ask..are 
you Jewish? ;-)).

FWIW I'll offer my own suggestions on this topic.  Severian observes that 
cacogens are considered one class or caste on earth but that they probably 
have their own races and divisions.  I see two distinct types among those 
Severian meets:

1. includes Father Inire and the Cumean (perhaps Hethor).  They  appear as 
small, old, twisted people, usually hooded. They are associated with animals 
and probably have the ablility to shapeshift (who does this evoke from 5th 
Head?).  They have the ability to instantaneously transcend distance but not 
time, with mirrors, perhaps other devices and clairvoyance. (I suspect the 
Cumean needed Severian, in the seance, to transcend time).  They live on 
Urth and provide its denizens with direct services such as a Botanical 
Garden, a Secret House Absolute and an Oracle.

2. includes Famulimus and Barbatus.  They appear as very tall, young and 
unnaturally beautiful.  They are associated with angels (Tzadkiel).  They 
show no shapeshifting ability and wear masks around humans.  They have the 
ability to travel in time but need spaceships to traverse distance.  They 
provide Baldanders with knowledge and machinery which can't be duplicated on 
Urth.  They live in space ships and stay separate from humanity.

(I'm not sure if Juturna fits best as a combination of these two or as part 
of a distinct race)

There are some suggestions these two groups do work together.  In his letter 
to the new Autarch, Inire says he hopes his "cousins" will be decide to 
provide them more weaponry for the Ascian war  and that they will finally 
recognize the Commonwealth as the best and truest representation of Urth.

Borski thinks Ossipago is Father Inire in disguise, inside a semi-robotic 
suit.  Perhaps this is true.  Just before he meets F, B and O, Severian sees 
a spaceship above Baldanders' castle with blobs of orange light going up and 
down. We later learn the orange light teleports people up and down from the 
ship.  Wolfe very pointedly has Severian see two blobs of orange light 
appear just before he enters the castle. Two, not three.

Here is a question I've not seen posed before:  Severian sees Jonas uses 
Father Inire's mirrors to travel to the stars and presumably a spaceship 
(The Spaceship?).  The old autarch, Appian, also shows Severian the way to 
reach Tzadkiel and New Sun testing is through mirrors (in a giant book, "go 
if you dare").  So why does Severian use spaceships instead of mirrors to 
reach his destination in Urth of the New Sun?

The mirrors are highly associated with bestial creatures while the spacehips 
seem the products of more angelic creatures.  Perhaps this choice helped 
Severian pass his test while Appian, using mirrors, failed.

-bsharp

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:06:17 +0000

> distinct types among those 
> Severian meets:
> 

What makes us think Father Inire and the Cumean have
the ability to shapeshift?  It's not clear to me that
Father Inire and the Cumean <cannot> travel time, or
simply choose not to.  On the contrary, there's some
info to suggest they do know how to travel time, even
if they don't do it themselves -- how else could FI
construct the Botanical Gardens, with its
time-twisting abilities? If they cannot, that also may
have something to do with the availability of
technology -- both Inire and the Cumean seem to
operate with less access to so-called Stellar
technology than F,B, and O.

And what makes us think that FI and the C aren't
wearing masks?  I would think they are, and I seem to
recall at some point (1) Sev mentions that fact about
FI, and (2) reports seeing the image of some kind of
alien, multi-eyed serpent superimposed over the
Cumean's outward guise as old woman.

Also, I think its accurate to say that F,B and O seem
to use ships for both distance and time -- unless you
are referring to them living backwards, which is no
more a form of time travel than our living forwards.

And I don't think it's correct to say that the
cacogens stay separate from humanity -- on the
contrary they seem to be regular visitors at the House
Absolute -- so much so that they need scary masks to
keep humanity from getting to familiar or dependent on
them.

OTOH, one additional difference btw the two groups you
identify is their apparent longevity -- hasn't Father
Inire served multiple Autarchs, such that his years
are beyond those normal for cacogens?  And hasn't the
Cumean served the witches for a similarly long period?

Another apparent difference is that FI and the C seem
to be living forwards -- they show none of the signs
F, B and O do of living in reverse.  On this point,
it's hard to imagine how Inire could supervise
construction of the gardens and the secret House if
every day he forgot what he did the day before.

As for why Sev takes the ship, I think it has less to
do with the symbolism of this being an angelic form of
transport and much more to do with the fact that his
passage on the ship gives him the opportunity to prove
to Tzadkiel that Urth should be redeemed.  Tzadkiel
uses the voyage to familiarize herself with Sev and
his morals by appearing to him on the ship in various
forms (apport, Zak the crewman, the false epitome of
Urth, etc.).

Lastly, your post reminds me of a couple of
long-standing questions:

1) FI is performing clear services for humanity and
has chosen a seemingly appropriate position to do so
at the center of the Commonwealth's administration. 
What is the Cumean doing for humanity?  How does her
interaction with the obscure Witches' guild or her
equally obscure presence in a disused part of the
Botanical Gardens help redeem humanity?  Or is she
around for some entirely different reason?

2) Wolfe at one point suggests that the Commonwealth
trades in human slaves in exchange for the
Stellar-level technology they receive.  What do the
cacogens do with those humans they take?

Thanks for your patience if you have read to the end
of this.

Macronaut

__________________________________________________
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---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:50:16 +0000

>Macronaut

Macronaut you DO pose a large number of questions which I appreciate!  I did 
have the patience to read through them all, though I'm not sure anyone else 
will want to ;-).  I think I can answer most of them, though some I may have 
to defer to a new, separate post. I think you answer some yourself though.

>What makes us think Father Inire and the Cumean have the ability to 
>shapeshift? And what makes >us think that FI and the C aren't wearing 
>masks?

As you note, the Cumaean, when seen in 4 dimensions by Severian, really has 
the form of a headless (or endlessly long) snake with many faces on her 
back. I don't think any mask would make THAT look like an old woman.  
Regarding Father Inirie,  Borski identifies him as making many secret 
appearances.  In the two most obvious (servitor guides Severian to Green 
Room; guide with monkeyhead pole in the jungle) he is wearing a hood.  I 
think he makes some other appearances that Borski misses in which his face 
(shapeshifted) is showing.  As The Cumaean is snake-like, so I think Inire 
is monkey-like.  Note in the Jungle room of the Botanical Garden both a 
snake and a monkey are encountered.  But more on that in later posts.

On the Cumaean and Inire focused more on traversing distance than time:  
This was an off the cuff thought which may not be defendable.  But we are 
told explicitly that F, B and O travel in time we don't know this to be true 
of Inire and The Cumaean.  But they seem to have ways to suddenly appear 
here and there and tools to allow others to do so, also.

>And I don't think it's correct to say that the cacogens stay separate from 
>humanity -- on the
>contrary they seem to be regular visitors at the House Absolute>

F, B and O make a rare appearance at the House Absolute to see a very 
special performance by their favorite person, in his earlier years.  
Otherwise they keep completely separate from humanity. In Baldanders' 
castle, they make it clear the Lake people cannot enter until they leave.  
They show similar avoidance of humans on Ship Tzadkiel and in the ancient 
Stone Town of Apu Punchau.

On their lifespans: It is Baldanders who says F, B and O have a 20 year 
lifespan (like dogs, lol).  Later Severian comments on how much longer 
Father Inire has lived than the lifespan of his shortlived species.  How 
might he be prolonging his life?  Consider the Cumaean's namesake in 
Greek/Roman mythology. She was:  (a sybil, connection to Long Sun surely 
intended)

>the prophetic old women of Greek mythology; she guided Aeneas through Hades 
>in the Aeneid. >She had been granted immortality by Apollo, but because she 
>forgot to ask for perpetual youth, >she shrank into withered old age and 
>her authority 
>declined.>http://members.chello.nl/~a.vanarum8/EliotProject/Waste_notes/Sibyl.htm

On F, B and O's time sense:  I think it has previously been successfully 
argued that they only travel backward in time. They can't perceive time 
backward or they couldn't even have a conversation. To them the previous 
sentence would appear as:  .noitaservnoc a evah neve t'ndluoc yeht ro 
drawkcab emit eviecrep t'nac yehT.  But they do travel always backward in 
time while there is no evidence I know of that Inire and The Cumaean do.

Urth, etc.).>

Exactly! If Severian had taken the mirrors he would have missed all that.  
Imagine Appian taking the mirrors, sitting down at a celestial table to do a 
few multiple choice and T/F questions.  In Foila's story she asks which path 
to take, the shortest or the best?  Choose the angel's path over the 
beasties, because they are closer to God.

Next question is a good one-
>What is the Cumean doing for humanity?

I think I know but would like to answer that in another (but soon 
forthcoming) post.

Lastly:

>Wolfe at one point suggests that the Commonwealth
>cacogens do with those humans they take?>

I have not seen or noted this suggestion.  Now Typhon makes it clear he 
would do interstallar trade  in slaves but I assume that's not what you 
mean. Could you point me to the reference? It's possible I have an 
answer....

Okay, I think that addresses everything. How did I do????

-bsharp

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:09:53 +0000

p.s.  Regarding regular visits  of F, B and O to the House Absolute, if you 
mean to Severian, after he is autarch then I think they must be private 
audience of one.

---

From: Mark Millman <millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:25:50 +0000

Dear b sharp:

On Mon, 22 May 2006, b sharp wrote:

> Consider the Cumaean's namesake
> in Greek/Roman mythology. She
> was:  (a sybil, connection to
> Long Sun surely intended)

Surely not.  Long Sun wasn't published until
a decade after New Sun, as originally planned
(i.e., without _Urth_), was complete.  It may
be the case that the use of "sibyl" in Long
Sun is a deliberate reference to the Cumaean,
but it seems very unlikely that Wolfe was sow-
ing seeds for Long Sun when he wrote the
Cumaean.

Mark Millman

---

From: maru dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:13:33 +0000

On 5/22/06, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:
....
> snake and a monkey are encountered. But more on that in later posts.
.....
> Okay, I think that addresses everything. How did I do????

So you think the Cumaean was a single really weird hierodule? Funny-
I'd always took it as a message that this was a single entity who
inhabited multiple humans over time (the many faces and continuous
snake), possibly in an Autarch-way of eating the brain.  One wonders
what Autarch Sev would look like....

~maru

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:18:52 +0000

Mark Millman writes:

>It may be the case that the use of "sibyl" in Long Sun is a deliberate 
>reference to the Cumaean,
>but it seems very unlikely that Wolfe was sowing seeds for Long Sun when he 
>wrote the >Cumaean.

I think some Wolfe worshipers  have the idea that he had Wizard Knight 
mentally complete before he wrote Island of Doctor Death.

But when I mention the connection of the sibyls (sorry@ prev. spelling) in 
Long Sun to BotNS I meant the backward, not forward connection.  That is 
much easier to defend and much less speculative since the previous work can 
be demonstrated to be in existence during the writing of the later work.

For this same reason I am much more prone to noting the connections of BotNS 
to 5th Head of Cerberus than later works.

-bsharp

---

From: Mark Millman <millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 04:39:42 +0000

Dear b sharp,

Please forgive my misunderstanding your
point.  I appreciate this clarification,
and your patience with my misapprehen-
sion.

Mark Millman

On Mon, 22 May 2006, b sharp wrote:

> Mark Millman writes:
>
> > It may be the case
> > that the use of
> > "sibyl" in Long Sun
> > is a deliberate
> > reference to the
> > Cumaean, but it
> > seems very unlikely
> > that Wolfe was sow-
> > ing seeds for Long
> > Sun when he wrote
> > the Cumaean.
>
> I think some Wolfe worshipers
> have the idea that he had Wizard
> Knight mentally complete before
> he wrote Island of Doctor Death.
>
> But when I mention the connec-
> tion of the sibyls (sorry@ prev.
> spelling) in Long Sun to BotNS I
> meant the backward, not forward
> connection.  That is much easier
> to defend and much less specula-
> tive since the previous work can
> be demonstrated to be in exist-
> ence during the writing of the
> later work.
>
> For this same reason I am much
> more prone to noting the connec-
> tions of BotNS to 5th Head of
> Cerberus than later works.
>
> -bsharp

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:34:56 +0000

b sharp wrote:
>drawkcab emit eviecrep t'nac yehT.

Regardless of how they personally cope with their temporal backwardness when
interacting with normal people, the fact remains, as I pointed out about a
week ago in the "Baldanders" thread, from the viewpoint of forward-living
entities, they know less and less as time goes on. Just revisit their first
meeting with Severian on the Ship to see it.

One of Ossipago's primary baby-sitting functions may have been to serve as a
data source/timekeeper for his charges, allowing them to interact with those
who experienced time conventionally. As a machine with sensors and a
data-storage and retrieval system, he must have experienced the flow of time
in a clockwise fashion.

-Roy

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:41:23 +0000

>meeting with Severian on the Ship to see it.>

Yes, F, B and O know less and less as OUR time passes.  We know less and 
less as their time passes.  They know the most in Apu Punchau's time.

>data-storage and retrieval system, he must have experienced the flow of 

This contradicts the "Ossipago is Inire" theory, which is fine with me.  But 
any thoughts on why Severian, before he enters Baldanders' castle, sees one 
orange blob teleport up to the spaceship, then only two ready to teleport 
down, just before he meets F, B and O for the (his) first time?

(the boring answer to the photo question is that it is merely the product of 
a image web search using the key words "embarassed face") I think there is 
only one picture of me posted online, me playing saxophone.)

-bsharp

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:15:22 +0000

>what Autarch Sev would look like....

I believe Wolfe specifically identifies Inire and The Cumaean as cacogens in 
one of his appendices, but I like your idea! It fits well with my upcoming 
post on the purpose of The Cumaean and witches.

In Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five, the Tralfamadorians can see in four 
dimensions, that is all of time simultaneously.  So to them, a human being 
looks like a long caterpillar with a baby's legs at the back and an old 
person's head at the front.  Something similar for The Cumaean?

If we take a mythological point of view (as Wolfe seems happy to, at least 
in part) we could say in simple terms that there are three basic sorts of 
beings:

                               Beast     Man     God(s).

Magical creatures are usually found in the spaces  between.  In modern times 
and modern mythology (SF, Fantasy?) we can add Machine to that Trinity, 
though there are rare examples of them in ancient myths (the Greek Talos, 
for example, perhaps the Golem is another).

So I wouldn't call The Cumaean (or Inire) Hierodules because they have 
bestial associations (and may be capable of rather beastial behavior.).  
They are ugly and can scare small children (Domnina) when they smile.  The 
Hierodules or "holy slaves" seem to inhabit the space between human and 
angel (or arch-angel as Tzadkiel's name suggests). They are inhumanly 
beautiful and are so pure we aren't even supposed to discuss slime around 
them.

-bsharp

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:34:50 +0000

>beautiful and are so pure we aren't even supposed to discuss slime around

Cacogen is a derogatory general term used on Urth to indicate all non-human
aliens. Not all cacogens belong to the same species. Not all "holy slaves"
need belong to the same species. Inire and the Cumaean are in fact
Hierodules.

"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me."
      Famulimus and Barbatus nodded." (URTH, 357)

-Roy

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:45:54 +0000

>     Famulimus and Barbatus nodded." (URTH, 357)

Good catch Roy and good analysis.
It is the in the appendix of Claw where Wolfe tells us they are both 
cacogens. But since I'm in a priggish mood I'll increase the precision and 
observe that text tells us that The Cumaean is a hierodule but not Inire. So 
she, at least, is both cacogen and hierodule.

-bsharp

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:03:47 +0000

> that text tells us that The Cumaean is a hierodule but not Inire. So

"Both cacogen and hierodule" is like saying "both vertebrate and
mammalian." The latter implies the former.

You are right, of course, that the text leaves the hierosity of
Father Inire rather ambiguous. The question is -- are there
any human-scale cacogens on Urth who are _not_ Hierish?
If so, who are they and how do we know?

--Dan'l
suddenly I feel like singing "When Hierish Eyes are Smiling"

-- 
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:27:21 +0000

LOL@ Hierish eyes smiling. For shadow children it is, "hey there, you with 
the stars in your eyes".

anyway Dan'l says:
>The question is -- are there

I think Robert Borski would say we can know them (cacogens)when they have 
mythological names and/or hide their eyes.  Maybe also when we suspect they 
are shape shifters or to use the other Wolfe word for that: "therians". No I 
don't think all the therians are mega.

-bsharp

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:44:20 +0000

Heh. The question was bait and I got switched! I guess I was
trying to see if, for example, anyone would suggest the
alzabo as a cacogen: certainly, a case can be made.

What human-scale "therians" can you point to?

--Dan'l
...and the Claw of the Conciliator turned out to be a
thorn from "My Wild Hierish Rose."

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 03:38:01 +0000

> What human-scale "therians" can you point to?

The various human-animal hybrids serving the autarch, from the mastiff 
men in the coach full of gold, to the anpiels, and perhaps even the 
ape-men in the mine at Saltus.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:36:55 +0000

>down, just before he meets F, B and O for the (his) first time?

I don't see the point of this, but this is the text in question:

"The misty light of the moon, the younger sister's kiss upon the face of her
dying elder, shone on the upper surface of that huge disk. Beneath it, in
its thick shadow, gleamed sparks of orange light. They moved, gliding up or
down, though their movement was so slow that I had watched them for some
time before I was conscious of it. Eventually, one rose until it appeared to
be immediately under the disk and vanished, and just before we came to
shore, two more appeared in the same spot." (SWORD, chapter XXXII)

The "sparks of orange light", seen from a distance, were the crewmen, the
"mermen" mentioned in the quote someone gave the other day (chapter XXXV,
first paragraph), moving around on the hull. There were obviously more than
three of them. What difference does it make if one went up and two came
down? All three Hierodules were inside the castle when Severian entered. One
of the "mermen" made an appearance at a castle window while they were
talking. One showed himself, "wreathed in orange light", on the hull just
before B, F and O went back to the ship. They ascended by using a slender
line that was "glowing orange". The "mermen" didn't use the orange line to
get about on the hull, but they probably used it to reach the castle, 35
feet below the ship. I doubt if Ossipago, even without his human costume,
could have crawled around on the hull.

At any rate, if B, F and O glowed orange while going up to the ship,
Severian failed to note it. I don't see any reason to suppose a particular
connection of the three "sparks of orange light" in question to B, F and
O -- if that is what you are trying to do.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:40:44 +0000

>mean. Could you point me to the reference? It's possible I have an 

It's in the Appendix to CITADEL.

-Roy

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:47:31 +0000

> >>cacogens do with those humans they take?>

I have two ideas about this (if I may propose an
answer to my own question).  My preferred theory is
that no harm is done to them -- they are welcomed into
Heirodule society and raised in that culture and
technology, and possibly even interbreed.  Master Ash
provides evidence that this happens -- reading Sev's
description of him it becomes clear that he has traits
in common both of humans and of heirodules, and he
describes their saving humanity (at least some of it)
from the encroaching ice of his future.  The other
reason this fits for me is Christian symbolism: the
most wretchedly treated on earth are the ones admitted
to the peaceful technological paradise of the
heirodules.  The heirodule practice of buying slaves
also serves as a barometer for man's moral development
in the Commonwealth: if people are still willing to
sell slaves, then mankind is not yet ready for
redemption.  The real interesting piece of evidence I
would love to find is something indicating that Sev
discontinued this practice during his urthly reign.

Anyway, the more mundane explanation is that they are
used as crew on Tzadkiel's ship.  

Macronaut