{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4616", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4616, "subject": "Father Inire", "messages": 34, "voices": 10, "first": "2006-05-25T04:44:02+00:00", "last": "2006-06-14T10:12:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T04:44:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On first reading of the BotNS I thought Father Inire (suggesting INRI King \nof the Jews?) made only one cameo apperance as the cowled servitor who \nguides Severian to the Green Room.\n\nRobert Borski convinced me that he also appears as the old, twisted, masked \njungle guide (who looks like Isangoma). This guy was rumored to be a shaman \n(therian) who could assume the form of a tiger (oops wrong animal). He \ncarried a bent stick with a monkey head on it (hm. okay then). Inire's \napperance there makes a lot of plot sense. He can ensure that the old \nautarch and Severian both survive and perform the memory transfer. He can \nextract information from Agia, etc. Okay, so he is Father Inire too.\n\nWell, I can be content with the one standard cameo appearance by the \ndirector, but if there are two then it is time to start looking for more. \nBorkski does this by seeking out father figures and characters with hidden \neyes and using cryptonyms and trying to make them fit. He comes up with \nOssipago, Palaemon, Paeon and Ceryx as versions of Inire. I think these are \nall very challengable and perhaps that can happen at a later time.\n\nMy own preference is to look first for physical clues. Perhaps in hope that \nWolfe is using the engineering side of his brain first, before the literary \nside. The multiple physical descriptions of Inire mark him as old, short, \nbent, twisted, looking like a monkey, with no more nose than an alouatte \n(black howler monkey http://www.painetworks.com/photos/dv/dv0881.JPG). With \nthat as a starting guide, here is my list of Inire cameo appearances:\n\n1. Uakari- Back in a June 1999 post, Mitchell A. Bailey felt the uakari \nwatching Severian from a tree as he was escaping the House Absolute grounds \nafter the play performance was really Inire. An alouatte was mentioned \nearlier so why an uakari here? With its bald head the uakari really looks \nlike an old man(http://www.brazilianfauna.com/images/reduakari.jpg) and I \ncan't blame Mitchell at all for thinking that an old man who looks like a \nmonkey might disguise himself as a monkey who looks like an old man.\n\n2. Baboon- when Severian wakes in a lazaret after his avern battle, \"An ape \nwith the head of a dog ran down the aisle, paused at my bed to look at me, \nthen ran on.\" Baboons are large, ape-like monkeys often referred to as \n\"dog-faced\" (http://www.cwaf.org/images/main-image-baboon.jpg).\n\n3. Isangoma- He is old though being short, bent or twisted is not mentioned. \nBut Wolfe explicitly notes his resemblance to the shape-shifting jungle \nguide with the monkey head pole. He is found in one of Father Inire's main \nhaunts, The Botanic Gardens. He isn't said to look like a monkey but he \nmentions monkeys in a story and invokes baby uakaris in his cant. When we \nmeet him, Marie is reading a Bibilcal passage to him- God's curse on Moses, \nthe shepherd of the Chosen People, to never see the Promised Land himself. \nThis could suggest Inire's role in BotNS.\n\n4. Rudesind- He is old and bent. We don't know how tall he is because he is \nusually on a ladder. He inhabits Father Inire's portion of the House \nAbsolute and is familiar enough with the Secret House\nto trick Severian into falling into it and to move easily from The Citadel \nto the House Absolute. He carries the letter of Father Inire to Severian. \nWe are told he is Inire's servant which should explain all the above.\n\nBut, we have also been told that the old Autarch, Appian, is himself several \nof the minor officials of his court. I think Father Inire uses the same \nploy. The most telling clue is when Rudesind first comes down from the \nladder \"like an aged monkey, seeming all arms and legs and wrinkled neck; \nhis hands were as long as my feet, the crooked fingers lined with blue \nveins\". Why would Wolfe use almost all the physical descriptions of Father \nInire for Rudesind unless he really was him? He also notes that Rudesind's \nnose and chin almost touch (proboscis monkey? \nhttp://www.mikekaplan.com/nss-folder/pictures/proboscis%20monkey.JPG).\n\nRudesind tells Severian, at different times, two interesting things: that \nhis wife died and that he is the advocate for the dead, giving a speech \nabout doing right by them. These two facts tie Rudesind to our next Inire \ncameo.\n\n5. Dorcas' husband- this guy is never named, though he and Dorcas are given \nample opportunity to do it. He also spends lots of time in the Botanic \nGardens poling his skiff, has a dead wife and seems like an advocate for the \ndead. Severian describes him as \"bowed and shrunken by age (he appeared \nolder even than Master Palaemon) until he could hardly have weighed more \nthan a boy of ten\".\n\nThis man tells Severian, \"Father Inire had the gardeners plant the averns. \nI was here and saw it. Just a little man he is, with a wry neck and bow \nlegs\". If the man IS Father Inire, no false statements there. And no \nthought or comment from Severian on how this man himself fits Inire's \ndescription. And Severian is ALWAYS making comparisons.\n\nHow could Dorcas be married to Father Inire?, you might ask. Two bits of \ncircumstantial evidence: Dorcas seems to have been a young teen when she \nwed. Through Lewis Carroll allusions and the Domnina scene we are informed \nthat Father Inire has an attraction to girls of this age. Moreover, if his \nbeloved wife Dorcas had died years ago, wouldn't Father Inire manipulate the \nONE person in the universe who could reanimate her, into doing so? Severian \naccidentally finds his own dead grandmother in a lake with ten thousand \nother dead bodies? Please.\n\nNow, it might be noted that Rudesind also mentions his wife dying soon after \nhaving two daughters. If his wife is really Dorcas, how could this be? I \nthink it suggests that Severian's accepted family tree needs some serious \nrestructuring. The Dorcas -> Ouen-> Severian scheme always seemed too easy \nand spoon-fed to me, given the difficulty of the other puzzles in this book.\n\nAn even more serious objection might be noting that, leaving the Samru, \nSeverian sees Dorcas with her dead husband and then later sees Rudesind in \nthe Citadel. Well, there are some very strange things about that Dorcas \nscene. Severian goes to shore because he sees a flower in a little boat, \nnewly built, at an ancient pier. He finds her kneeling \"the body of the old \nman who had poled the skiff there lay on a bier before her, his back so \nstraight, his face, in death, so youthful, that I hardly knew him\".\n\nCan we be sure it IS the old man from the skiff? Why would he look so much \nyounger in death? Could Severian be once again mistaken about who a family \nmember really is? Again, I think Severian's family tree may need major \nrevamping.\n\nFinal note, the flower on the boat from this scene is a wilted white poppy \nand Severian sees Dorcas has replaced it in her hair with a fresh arum. \nThere was a great post in here a while back on the meanings of flowers. \nWhite poppy means \"dormant affection\". Arum means \"ardor\". There are many \nprevious hints in the text that Dorcas has some deeper issues. But these \nare all part of a new puzzle.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002201c67fc1$04930f00$223ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-25T06:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hrmmph. I ain't buyin' all of it, and some of it has been said before, but\nit's easily your most cogent post to date. Well done!\n\nWhat about Becan on the Rudesind/Fechin angle? And you do know that Dorcas'\nhusband was present when Severian was saved from drowning at the beginning\nof SHADOW? I never did trust that girl.\n\nAm I helping, or giving you more rope? \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525063329.289B133C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T06:33:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<002201c67fc1$04930f00$223ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 25 May 2006 14:44:02 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nOn first reading of the BotNS I thought Father Inire (suggesting \nINRI King \nof the Jews?) made only one cameo apperance as the cowled servitor " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who \nguides Severian to the Green Room." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've wondered whether the \"cynocephalous ape\" Sev sees in the \nbarracks when he awakes after the avern combat mightn't also be \nInire, come to check out the new guy. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525065904.9935.qmail@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T06:59:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\n\n I " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "think it suggests that Severian's accepted family\ntree needs some serious \nrestructuring. The Dorcas -> Ouen-> Severian scheme\nalways seemed too easy \nand spoon-fed to me, given the difficulty of the\nother puzzles in this book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Could Severian be once again" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mistaken about who a family \nmember really is? Again, I think Severian's family\ntree may need major \nrevamping." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for this, I agree 110 percent. My ideas and\nyours about Sev's family tree aren't the same, but we\nboth agree the accepted version just doesn't seem to\nwork thematically. By the way, thanks for your\ninteresting posts, I don't agree with them all, but\nthey're definitely well thought out and argued, and\nthe list hasn't seen this much life in a while. I\nremember when I first found this list. It was a relief\njust to be able to express the thoughts bouncing\naround in my head. One thing everyone on this list\nseems to agree on (maybe the only thing) is that\nthere's something special about Wolfe's major works\nthat make them worth talking about. over. and. over.\nand again. : )\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525070714.76137.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:07:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<002201c67fc1$04930f00$223ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n\nAnd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you do know that Dorcas'\nhusband was present when Severian was saved from\ndrowning at the beginning\nof SHADOW? I never did trust that girl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don, reverting to his southern vernacular: \"Do what?\"\n(say again?)\nI don't have my books, Roy (never never never loan out\nyour books) so can you do me a kindness and quote or\nparaphrase that one? This is the first I've heard of it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<004201c67fd6$d7ecff40$243ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-25T08:40:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<20060525070714.76137.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett quoted and wrote:\nAnd\nyou do know that Dorcas'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "husband was present when Severian was saved from\ndrowning at the beginning\nof SHADOW? I never did trust that girl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don, reverting to his southern vernacular: \"Do what?\"\n(say again?)\nI don't have my books, Roy (never never never loan out\nyour books) so can you do me a kindness and quote or\nparaphrase that one? This is the first I've heard of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought 'most everyone knew that. The last page of chapter II.\n__________________________________\n I said, \"I saw Malrubius.\"\n An old man, a boatman from his tar-stained clothes, took Roche by the\nshoulder. \"Who's that?\"\n \"Used to be Master of Apprentices. He's dead.\"\n \"Not a woman?\" The old man was holding Roche but looking at me.\n \"No, no,\" Roche told him. \"There are no women in our guild.\"\n________________________________\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T11:37:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<004201c67fd6$d7ecff40$243ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hrmmph. I ain't buyin' all of it, and some of it has been said before, but \nit's easily your most >cogent post to date." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy you are so parsimonious! Care to elaborate on which parts of my post are \nwrong, which are old hat and which are cogent?\n\nRoy also says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about Becan on the Rudesind/Fechin angle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At some later date I'll post on my ideas about Severian's family tree. And \nCasdoe's family will surely play a part in that post. As the new guy, I \nwill admit it is still a work in progress.\n\nMore Roy:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And you do know that Dorcas' husband was present when Severian was saved \nfrom drowning at >the beginning of SHADOW? I never did trust that girl.\n\"An old man, a boatman from his tar-stained clothes, took Roche by the \nshoulder. \"Who's that?\"\n\"Used to be Master of Apprentices. He's dead.\"\n\"Not a woman?\" The old man was holding Roche but looking at me.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure the old man is Dorcas' husband? The tar marks him as a sailor \nand the \"not a woman\" comment as someone familiar with undines. These clues \ncall first to my mind Maxellindis' uncle who sails up and down the Gyoll \nwhere the scene takes place. Dorcas' husband has a very small boat on a \nlake but no mention of him being a sailor. Only of him previously being a \nshopkeeper and hauling artwork and currently living in the loft of a \nfriend's House. He does mention manatees. Now, Maxellindis' uncle is also \nunnamed, he hangs out with a young teenage girl.........Which girl don't you \ntrust Roy? ;-).\n\nWas Father Inire ever a sailor? Probably, but not that kind, on urth's \nwater. Of course we know that water and space sailors share similar skills \nand mannerisms. That's what the cap'n said watching the Popeye on Pluto \nshow. Sindbad on Saturn? oh never mind.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T19:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plunking on the honkytonk of his brain, bsharp improvises the following \ncadenza about the pansimianess of Father Inire:\n\n\n\nIn his essay on the onomastics of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe writes, \"In this \npiece I'd like to go into names a bit more deeply, beginning with the rule \nof naming I used: Everything is just what it says it is.\"\n\nRudesind, of course, is a saint's name, a convention used over and over \nagain by the author to differentiate humans from Other -- a rule however \nbsharp violates in favor of ape's blood and gerontica. Moreover, there is in \nRudesind an exquisite pun, because it derives from the Latin word, 'rudis,' \nwhich comes about as close as you can say in that antiquated language, to \n\"paint by numbers.\" This is because Rudesind is one of those failed artist \ntypes who is perhaps best exemplified by the Shawian dictate, \"Those who \ncan, do; those who can't, curate.\" Hence his endless starf*cking prattle \nabout Fechin, as well as his own artistic ambitions as a youth. This is not \nextensive deep cover by an alien operative; it's gall by someone who's never \nfully accepted his own mediocrity. (Interestingly, as Rudesind conducts \nSeverian through a narrower corridor of the House Absolute's gallery, the \ntorturer-critic opines of the pictures there, \"From what I could see of \nthem, they appeared very bad--more daubs.\" This may well be because he's in \nRudesind's personal wing.)\n\nThis does not, however, mean that Rudesind hasn't been used by Father Inire \nas a factotum. As Severian tells the curator at the end of _Citadel_, \"We \nknow your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever \nreason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely \nwith humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another \nsuch, though perhaps you did not know that. We even know that your master \nwas with us in the jungles of the north, where he tried until it was too \nlate to rescue my predecessor.\"\n\nSo let me attempt a summation: Rudesind, as the root of his name suggests, \nis \"unskilled, not improved by art.\" He's a dripper and spitter manqué-- not \nan eater of fleas in the Hierodule zoo.\n\nMsGhee" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003201c68032$f03d30e0$4b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-25T19:39:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\n4. Rudesind- He is old and bent. We don't know how tall he is because he\nis\nusually on a ladder. He inhabits Father Inire's portion of the House\nAbsolute and is familiar enough with the Secret House\nto trick Severian into falling into it and to move easily from The Citadel\nto the House Absolute. He carries the letter of Father Inire to Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could object that Inire said in the letter that he would not reach the\nCitadel for two more days, but you could counter by asking how the letter\nreached the Citadel in the first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An even more serious objection might be noting that, leaving the Samru,\nSeverian sees Dorcas with her dead husband and then later sees Rudesind in\nthe Citadel. Well, there are some very strange things about that Dorcas\nscene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've said so myself. See, iirc, \"Dear Dorcas\" in the older archive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian goes to shore because he sees a flower in a little boat,\nnewly built, at an ancient pier. He finds her kneeling \"the body of the\nold\nman who had poled the skiff there lay on a bier before her, his back so\nstraight, his face, in death, so youthful, that I hardly knew him\".\n\nCan we be sure it IS the old man from the skiff? Why would he look so much\nyounger in death?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian thought people asleep looked younger than when awake -- Jonas being\nan exception." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could Severian be once again mistaken about who a family\nmember really is? Again, I think Severian's family tree may need major\nrevamping." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the body was not that of the dead Boatman, whose body was it? Surely not\nInire, who remained with Severian all ten years of his autarchy. Severian\nsaw both the dead Boatman and Rudesind just days apart. How could he look on\nthem both and not see any resemblance, if there was one? Masks? And he\ncouldn't tell there were masks involved, even after ten years of being\naround both Inire and the three Hierodules?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c6803c$d18e6100$fe3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-25T20:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<003201c68032$f03d30e0$4b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nAre you sure the old man is Dorcas' husband? The tar marks him as a sailor\nand the \"not a woman\" comment as someone familiar with undines." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis, afaik, was the first to suggest that old man to be Dorcas' husband.\nHer husband was familiar with manatees and delivered the avern lecture. The\nbasic idea is: The Boatman (her husband) went almost daily for forty years\nto look for her body. It wasn't where it was supposed to be. He said \"Don't\nyou heed what they say. They put them where the figure shows, but they don't\nstay there. Some has been see'd in the river, even.\"\n\nHe had to live near the Botanic Gardens and have a place to keep his boat.\nThe friend's loft is presumed to be among the tenements below the Citadel,\nwhich is just downstream from the Gardens. That's why he was at the swimming\narea. His concern about someone possibly seeing the body of a woman under\nthe water was because he thought his wife's body might have been washed\ndownstream. Maxellindis' uncle said he had never confused a manatee for a\nwoman, in CITADEL. In any event, he had no particular reason to be concerned\nabout whether the person Severian had seen underwater was a man or a woman.\nDorcas' husband did. That's the theory, anyway.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525221158.62828.qmail@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T22:11:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- mournings glory \nwrote:\nPlunking on the honkytonk of his brain, bsharp\nimprovises the following \ncadenza about the pansimianess of Father Inire:\n\n\n\nIn his essay on the onomastics of the New Sun, Gene\nWolfe writes, \"In this \npiece I'd like to go into names a bit more deeply,\nbeginning with the rule \nof naming I used: Everything is just what it says it\nis.\"\n\nRudesind, of course, is a saint's name, a convention\nused over and over \nagain by the author to differentiate humans from\nOther -- a rule however \nbsharp violates in favor of ape's blood and\ngerontica. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This does not necessarily negate bsharp's argument -\nthat Inire is possibly disguised as the human\nRudesind. It would be natural for him to take a human\nrather than a Hierodule name. To disguise oneself\nsuccessfully is to \"become\" the other in a sense. I\nrealize that the naming conventions are a device of\nthe author to convey metatextual clues to the reader,\nbut they also represent true differences in naming\nconventions between cacogens and humans. I think\nbsharp's idea still has legs.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525221424.52568.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T22:14:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<003201c68032$f03d30e0$4b3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nIf the body was not that of the dead Boatman, whose\nbody was it? Surely not\nInire, who remained with Severian all ten years of\nhis autarchy. Severian\nsaw both the dead Boatman and Rudesind just days\napart. How could he look on\nthem both and not see any resemblance, if there was\none? Masks? And he\ncouldn't tell there were masks involved, even after\nten years of being\naround both Inire and the three Hierodules?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the argument is that Inire is a kind of\nshapeshifter. No masks involved\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T23:18:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes", "in_reply_to": "<20060525221158.62828.qmail@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: don doggett" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This does not necessarily negate bsharp's argument -\nthat Inire is possibly disguised as the human\nRudesind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that there's no reason for Inire to disguise himself as a would-be \npainter. It serves neither function nor purpose. So why do it, and to what \nend? Rudesind is not like jungle-shaman-Inire who must disguise himself from \nVodalus and Agia in order to make sure the autarchy is passed on from Appian \nto Severian; nor is he like the nameless cowled servitor in the House \nAbsolute who may not even be trying to disguise himself, but is simply more \nor less dismissed by an unobservant Severian half-lost in the fugue of \nthought. Rudesind encounters Severian only three times, and each time we get \nelaborate backstory, rich with unnecessary details; but why \"pretend\" to be \nhuman so you can give directions to the library, lecture Severian about the \ngreen room, or pass on a letter written to the new autarch by Father Inire \n-- who is yourself? In the latter regard, now that Severian has legitimately \nclaimed the Phoenix Throne, why doesn't Rudesind simply unmask himself and \nsay, \"Hey, it's me, monkeyface -- jokes on you.\"? Because there's no reason \nfor him to continue the disguise, nor for that matter ever to have donned it \nin the first place.\n\nFurthermore, dismissing the naming conventions of saint, myth, and monster, \nand then claiming that a shape-shifting, mask-wearing, alien could be \nanyone, even including a shadow child from St. Anne, you wind up with a \nfarrago of chaos --not a novel by Gene Wolfe.\n\nz q x (alphamorph)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<76A9486F-42D7-43E1-859B-51F5D2359719@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T23:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 25, 2006, at 6:18 PM, mournings glory wrote:\nyou wind up with a\nfarrago of chaos --not a novel by Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think \"Farrago of Chaos\" was one half of an Ace Double. \nMaybe one of the more forgettable Murray Leinster books?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605251909m3cdd2e23i1a8ecc1a657ed6e6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T02:09:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Totally off topic, but ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/06, mournings glory wrote:\nPlunking on the honkytonk of his brain, bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any particular reason why you believe b to be a he? I\nhad tentatively decided \"she,\" but would not presume to address\nb as either \"he\" or \"she\" pending confirmation from hir own\nkeybird.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T02:55:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605251909m3cdd2e23i1a8ecc1a657ed6e6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Totally off topic, but ...\n\nOn 5/25/06, mournings glory wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plunking on the honkytonk of his brain, bsharp" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any particular reason why you believe b to be a he? I\nhad tentatively decided \"she,\" but would not presume to address\nb as either \"he\" or \"she\" pending confirmation from hir own\nkeybird." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Y chromosome seems especially dominant here and I cannot remember the \nlast time that someone clearly identified as XX ventured to enter the \ndomain.\n\nUnfortunately, the Gender Genie (http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.html) is \ndown today, so we can't test a chunk of his/her/its prose; at least with me, \nlast time I did so, I'm still coming up \"female\".\n\nOf course, b# could always tell us -- and regardless of gender and how often \nI may disagree, a big shout-out to you, sir or mam, whichever you may be! \nThere have not been this many posts in a single month since I joined the \nlist three years ago, and if your posts about the rest of Wolfe's work are \nas provocative and interesting, it should make for much intesting reading \nand debate to come.\n\nXmX" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T03:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Mournings glory takes me to task for violating Mantis' saints and \nmyths naming rule (I don't violate Wolfe's \"everything is what it says it \nis\" rule. We don't even get a name in the BotNS for the old Autarch who \nplays so many roles, from autarch to third bursar to pimp-daddy. Is he \nAppian in all those roles? We don't know.\n\nWhy can't Rudesind really be the guy's name in his human role and Father \nInire really be his name when he is performing his hierodule role? Be that \nas it may, I am quite open to argments that Rudesind is not Inire though I'd \nlike those arguments to explain why Rudesind resembles Inire so closely in \ndescription as does Dorcas' husband and all the parallels between Rudesind \nand Dorcas' husband.\n\nNatuarlly Fechin must be included, since he is connected to Rudesind and to \nCasdoe's family. And we can't forget that cloisonne might connect Dorcas to \nThecla and to Cyriaca and to Fechin. and... Sheesh. fine! never mind. Let's \nread some Asimov.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T04:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes", "in_reply_to": "<76A9486F-42D7-43E1-859B-51F5D2359719@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mourning, I'm seeing a pattern. You are absolutely an anti-Rudesindite. You \nhate his painting, you hate his appreciation of Fechin, you hate his drivel \nand his working class vernacular, you hate the way he throws his feces \nthrough the bars when he gets mad...okay...sorry..\n\nAnyway, consider your own arguments. Why DOES Wolfe give this vacuous \nbabbler so much story time, strategically placed at the beginning, middle \nand end of BotNS? We are really supposed to just dismiss him, as you do?\n\nI take issue with your contention that the role I assign him is worthless to \nthe story. To me the parallel to Appian serving as his own servants is \nreinforcing. Understand that I don't think Dorcas' unnamed husband is \nCharon or Caronus or whatever but....Rudesind. Rudesind the widower, \nRudesind the advocate of the dead. I think Wolfe wants us to find the names \nof his unnamed characters, not make them up.\n\nBonus question- Aside from Lewis Carroll, Father Inire has been compared to \nDaedalus because of all the labyrinths he constructs. Who then serves as \nhis son Icarus who is killed by flying too close to the Sun?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060526045000.24183.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T04:50:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\n\nWhy can't Rudesind really be the guy's name in his\nhuman role and Father \nInire really be his name when he is performing his\nhierodule role? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly my point. One clear theme in many of Wolfe's\nworks is that the role ends up making the \"man\".\n\n\n Be that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as it may, I am quite open to argments that Rudesind\nis not Inire though I'd \nlike those arguments to explain why Rudesind\nresembles Inire so closely in \ndescription as does Dorcas' husband and all the\nparallels between Rudesind \nand Dorcas' husband." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is great stuff, and while it may yet be shown\nincorrect, I for one would hate for it to get snuffed\nout prematurely.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002401c680ff$a5ba3ea0$753ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-26T20:04:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "msg quoted and wrote:\nThis does not necessarily negate bsharp's argument -\nthat Inire is possibly disguised as the human\nRudesind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Furthermore, dismissing the naming conventions of saint, myth, and\nmonster," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and then claiming that a shape-shifting, mask-wearing, alien could be\nanyone, even including a shadow child from St. Anne, you wind up with a\nfarrago of chaos --not a novel by Gene Wolfe.<<\n\nI have trouble with the idea that a member of an alien species could\nsuccessfully interbreed with a human. ( The product of the Severian-Apheta\nunion was *not* biological.) That is, I can't see Inire fathering a child\n(or children) on Dorcas. If Dorcas did have another child, as the text\nimplies, and that child had offspring, that would make Ouen, Severian's\ndaddy, something of a monkey's uncle. \n\nActually, Severian looked very much like his father, and neither resembled\nInire -- or a monkey -- or any other of Inire's alleged human disguises. I\nsee no evidence of shape-shifting in NEW SUN, but even if Inire had that\nability, such a non-human characteristic further weighs against the\nlikelihood of viable progeny, in my opinion.\n\nAs for the Boatman being a grieving Inire (though I suppose the story of the\nforty-year search for Dorcas was all a lie, given the stated assumption that\na man who hadn't even been born when the search began was needed to call her\nback from the dead), there was no need for any such rigmarole. All that was\nneeded was another Hierodule-made eidolon. If it can be done for a damn dog,\nit can surely be done for the Conciliator's grandmother and Inire's lost\nlove. A few weeks of eating and breathing would be all that was needed to\nmake her as \"real\" as Severian.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c6812a$bdb1e640$2d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-27T01:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes", "in_reply_to": "<002401c680ff$a5ba3ea0$753ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nI see no evidence of shape-shifting in NEW SUN, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take that back; Tzadkiel could do it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-27T01:24:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes", "in_reply_to": "<001001c6812a$bdb1e640$2d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see no evidence of shape-shifting in NEW SUN," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take that back; Tzadkiel could do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, too, I believe, could his son, Venant -- unless you're going to argue he \nnaturally looks like the very human, if false, Epitome of Urth.\n\nmg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4489DF74.7080506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-06-09T20:52:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n3. Isangoma- He is old though being short, bent or twisted is not mentioned. \nBut Wolfe explicitly notes his resemblance to the shape-shifting jungle \nguide with the monkey head pole. He is found in one of Father Inire's main \nhaunts, The Botanic Gardens. He isn't said to look like a monkey but he \nmentions monkeys in a story and invokes baby uakaris in his cant. When we \nmeet him, Marie is reading a Bibilcal passage to him- God's curse on Moses, \nthe shepherd of the Chosen People, to never see the Promised Land himself. \nThis could suggest Inire's role in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, Isangoma is butt naked; nothing to hide Inire's nonhuman nature \nor his ultratech gadgets." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-10T15:25:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4489DF74.7080506@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In response to the possibility of Isangoma and later the jungle guide being \nFather Inire\nJeff Wilson notes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, Isangoma is butt naked; nothing to hide Inire's nonhuman nature or \nhis ultratech gadgets." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, he is, and so is the jungle guide (except for a mask, hiding eyes?) \nand his young twin assistants. All four of these guys have dark \nmetallic-looking skin. Sounds a bit alien to me. This might be Father \nInire's true form.\n\nJust curious about people's opinions. Father Inire never makes an official, \nannounced appearance in BotNS. Are there some who think he is forever an \nabsent character like Norm's wife in Cheers or Niles' wife in Frazier?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<448C91C4.4080607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-06-11T21:57:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nIn response to the possibility of Isangoma and later the jungle guide being \nFather Inire\nJeff Wilson notes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, Isangoma is butt naked; nothing to hide Inire's nonhuman nature or \nhis ultratech gadgets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, he is, and so is the jungle guide (except for a mask, hiding eyes?) \nand his young twin assistants. All four of these guys have dark \nmetallic-looking skin. Sounds a bit alien to me. This might be Father \nInire's true form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No more alien than Doc Savage, or any number of other melanin-rich \ncharacters of literature. But Inire should have some obvious nonhuman \nfeature to be considered a \"cacogen,\" particularly in a metropolis where \nvisible bionic limbs are commonplace and people with animal heads are \nmerely unusual." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060612060345.24075.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-06-12T06:03:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've found that I have no hate in my heart for any\nSF/fantasy writers (though there's plenty I have no\ndesire to read). It's all reserved for \"literary\"\nfiction writers who pretend to something that SF is\nfortunately not burdened with- SIGNIFICANCE (note the\ncaps). It's pretence that sickens me, not bad writing.\nBut, back to Wolfe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\nJust curious about people's opinions. Father Inire\nnever makes an official, \nannounced appearance in BotNS. Are there some who\nthink he is forever an \nabsent character like Norm's wife in Cheers or\nNiles' wife in Frazier?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an excellent question. Up until your posts I\nsuppose I was of the bent that Inire was mostly an\noffstage character. I feel certain that he his the\nmedicine man who guides Sev and the ascians and I also\nbelieve he is the \"naked one\" in the tale of fish and\nfrog. Hidden once, hidden twice, hidden x times, okay,\nbut you still haven't quite sold me. I'm listening\nthough.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370606112348i4c1f6de7tebfb4a72e9567beb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-12T06:48:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<20060612060345.24075.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/11/06, don doggett wrote:\nI've found that I have no hate in my heart for any\nSF/fantasy writers (though there's plenty I have no\ndesire to read)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll go you one better: I don't hate any writer of any sort, at\nleast as a writer. Nor any musician, painter, or any other\nsort of artist. I hold with Kurt Vonnegut that hating a work\nof art is like jousting with an ice cream sundae. It just\nisn't worth it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"One o'th'flay-rods gone out o'skew on th'treadle.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200606120707.06093.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-06-12T11:07:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<20060612060345.24075.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 12 June 2006 02:03, don doggett wrote:\nI've found that I have no hate in my heart for any\nSF/fantasy writers (though there's plenty I have no\ndesire to read). It's all reserved for \"literary\"\nfiction writers who pretend to something that SF is\nfortunately not burdened with- SIGNIFICANCE (note the\ncaps). It's pretence that sickens me, not bad writing.\nBut, back to Wolfe:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly enough, pretentiousness is one of the charges that is frequently \nleveled at both Donaldson and Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060613021631.95932.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-06-13T02:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<200606120707.06093.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Daniel D Jones wrote:\nInterestingly enough, pretentiousness is one of the\ncharges that is frequently \nleveled at both Donaldson and Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't find Wolfe's style pretentious at all, mainly\nbecause it serves his story. Too many writers are (in\nmy biased opinion, of course) in love with the Word\nfor its own sake and I feel they are either mistaking\nthe finger for the moon or covering for their lack of\nanything relevant to say. Wolfe, at his simplest, is\nsaying THINK, which in this day and age is as\nworthwhile as anything.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060613022619.49342.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-06-13T02:26:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370606112348i4c1f6de7tebfb4a72e9567beb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'll go you one better: I don't hate any writer of\nany sort, at\nleast as a writer. Nor any musician, painter, or any\nother\nsort of artist. I hold with Kurt Vonnegut that\nhating a work\nof art is like jousting with an ice cream sundae. It\njust\nisn't worth it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I don't know about that, some art is well\ndeserving of hate, if for no other reason than to spur\ndialogue and make people think. Some artists actively\ncourt dislike for that reason, while others (nazi\npropagandists, to name an easy one) use art to convey\na message that should in good conscience be answered\nand rejected, and rightfully despised. Note, I did not\nsay banned. That's a different can of worms\naltogether. But I'm way OT here.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200606130719.05528.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-06-13T11:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<20060613021631.95932.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 12 June 2006 22:16, don doggett wrote:\n--- Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interestingly enough, pretentiousness is one of the\ncharges that is frequently\nleveled at both Donaldson and Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find Wolfe's style pretentious at all, mainly\nbecause it serves his story. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the charge is that his _style_ is pretentious, but that his work \nitself is. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060613192102.18133.qmail@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-06-13T19:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<200606130719.05528.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Daniel D Jones wrote:\nI don't think the charge is that his _style_ is\npretentious, but that his work \nitself is. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's a frivolous charge at best, and a lazy\none. I assume those who say this think that Wolfe's\nwork tries to rise \"above its station\" as SF?\nPretending to significance in a genre that's by it's\nnature trite? Or am I way off the mark?\n\nregards\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200606131748.37725.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2006-06-13T21:48:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<20060613192102.18133.qmail@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 13 June 2006 15:21, don doggett wrote:\n--- Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the charge is that his _style_ is\npretentious, but that his work\nitself is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's a frivolous charge at best, and a lazy\none. I assume those who say this think that Wolfe's\nwork tries to rise \"above its station\" as SF?\nPretending to significance in a genre that's by it's\nnature trite? Or am I way off the mark?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not like there's a coherent, monolithic movement, and I've read similar \narguments to those. But there are those who dismiss the BoTNS as torture \nfetishism and The Wizard/Knight as simple wish fulfillment." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-14T10:12:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire and SF loathing", "in_reply_to": "<200606131748.37725.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are, unfortunately, many people out there who refuse to see. This is \nthe reason why the injunction was, \"...don't worry about that splinter in \nyour neighbor's eye, worry about the log in your own.\"\n\n\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire and SF loathing\nDate: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:48:37 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 13 June 2006 15:21, don doggett wrote:\n--- Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the charge is that his _style_ is\npretentious, but that his work\nitself is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's a frivolous charge at best, and a lazy\none. I assume those who say this think that Wolfe's\nwork tries to rise \"above its station\" as SF?\nPretending to significance in a genre that's by it's\nnature trite? Or am I way off the mark?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not like there's a coherent, monolithic movement, and I've read similar\narguments to those. But there are those who dismiss the BoTNS as torture\nfetishism and The Wizard/Knight as simple wish fulfillment." } ] } ] }