{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4617", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4617, "subject": "Hierodules & time", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2006-05-25T06:48:52+00:00", "last": "2006-05-25T14:21:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20060525064853.D515C33C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T06:48:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is hierodules who are supposed to travel backwards through time, \n\nright? I always get the various hiero-levels mixed up.\n\nWhatever, it's a really annoying plot device & I'm glad that Wolfe \ndropped it in the (far, far better, IMO) Long/Short Sun books.\n\nIf they actually do move backwards in time then surely this must be \n\ntrue of each instant. In which case how do they converse with Sev? \nIt's fairly absurd to imagine them constructing sentences and then \ndelivering them backwards. But it's even more absurd to imagine \nthem delivering those backwards-sentences in response to, but \nbefore, comments made by Sev.\n\nUnless they are lying for some reason about progressing backwards-\nthru-time. Which would be equally annoying. \n\nBah! Harumph." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525071535.22053.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:15:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525064853.D515C33C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a much simpler explanation. They age forward\n(their personal timeline goes in the same direction as\nanyone else's) but they are traveling backward via the\ncorridors of time. They are from the future moving\ndown the timeline to the past. And GW certainly didn't\ndrop time travel in the LS SS series, imo, but I'm of\nthe opinion that NS UotNS LS and SS are a single 12\nvolume novel rather than separate series set in the\nsame universe.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nIt is hierodules who are supposed to travel\nbackwards through time, \n\nright? I always get the various hiero-levels mixed\nup.\n\nWhatever, it's a really annoying plot device & I'm\nglad that Wolfe \ndropped it in the (far, far better, IMO) Long/Short\nSun books.\n\nIf they actually do move backwards in time then\nsurely this must be \n\ntrue of each instant. In which case how do they\nconverse with Sev? \nIt's fairly absurd to imagine them constructing\nsentences and then \ndelivering them backwards. But it's even more absurd\nto imagine \nthem delivering those backwards-sentences in\nresponse to, but \nbefore, comments made by Sev.\n\nUnless they are lying for some reason about\nprogressing backwards-\nthru-time. Which would be equally annoying. \n\nBah! Harumph.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525072145.44D6533C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525071535.22053.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:15:35 +1000 don doggett \n wrote:\nThere's a much simpler explanation. They age forward\n(their personal timeline goes in the same direction as\nanyone else's) but they are traveling backward via the\ncorridors of time. They are from the future moving\ndown the timeline to the past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do what? \n\nSorry, no doubt being dumb but I just don't understand that. If \nthey are \"from the future moving down the timeline to the past\", \nwouldn't that correspond to what I wrote?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525072309.47118.qmail@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:23:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525071535.22053.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Replying to my own post, to clarify:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- don doggett wrote:\nThere's a much simpler explanation. They age forward\n(their personal timeline goes in the same direction\nas\nanyone else's) but they are traveling backward via\nthe\ncorridors of time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are traveling via a device, not through the\n\"natural\" process.\n\nThey are from the future moving" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "down the timeline to the past. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meaning travelling backward is their job, their\nassignment, rather than their nature.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525073405.95299.qmail@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525072145.44D6533C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nDo what? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYeah, I realised that wasn't too clear so I reposted.\nBasically they're just like you and me if we had a\ntime machine and Roy told us to take it and always\ntravel backward, contacting GW Bush from his last days\nin his presidency to his time travelling escapades in\nFirst Dynasty Egypt. : ) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525074546.97302.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:45:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525072309.47118.qmail@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To further clarify this (how tacky on my part)\nFamulimus, Barbatus only live for about twenty years,\nso traveling by a machine is the way to maximize their\ntime with Sev. The reason they are travelling backward\nis so they can be knowledgeable guides when Sev needs\nit most, before he becomes Autarch and during his\nearly reign. There's really no need for them\n(storywise) to age backward and I don't think that's\nwhat's happening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- don doggett wrote:\nReplying to my own post, to clarify:\n\n--- don doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a much simpler explanation. They age\nforward\n(their personal timeline goes in the same\ndirection\nas\nanyone else's) but they are traveling backward via\nthe\ncorridors of time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are traveling via a device, not through the\n\"natural\" process.\n\nThey are from the future moving\ndown the timeline to the past. \n\nMeaning travelling backward is their job, their\nassignment, rather than their nature.\n\nDon\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam\nprotection around \nhttp://mail.yahoo.com \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525075023.EE59A33C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T07:50:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525074546.97302.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:34:05 +1000 don doggett \n wrote:\n--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do what? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, I realised that wasn't too clear so I reposted.\nBasically they're just like you and me if we had a\ntime machine and Roy told us to take it and always\ntravel backward, contacting GW Bush from his last days\nin his presidency to his time travelling escapades in\nFirst Dynasty Egypt. : ) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I certainly agree that's the best explanation, but I'm not \nsure it fits 100%. I *think* they say at some point that backwards-\nthru-time is indeed their nature - on the Ship? Need to rummage \naround to see if I can find the passage. \n\nBut mainly - why? It seems a very inconvenient way to plan a \nmission. I mean, I can see the point of them going back in time for \n(say) a first meeting with Baldanders, after which they move \nforward like everybody else. But that isn't what seems to happen: \nthey've had interactions with Sev on Urth before (on their \ntimeline) his first meeting with them (on his), which is also their \nlast interaction with Baldanders (on *his* timeline) in his castle. \nSo it would have to be something more complicated. Which would be, \nonce again, annoying :)\n\nA quick flip thru the archives shows somebody suggesting that \nOssipago might temporarily reverse their time-flow for interactions \nwith \"normal\" people. I guess that'd patch my conceptual hole here, \nif there were some evidence for it. But I still wouldn't like it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T12:03:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "<20060525075023.EE59A33C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both Tzadkiel and Typhon (I think it is him) make chessboard references to \nthe BotNS drama. Tzadkiel tells Severian that his is a race of pawns, who \ncan only move in one direction in time, unless they reach the end (Yesod) \nand are brought back to the beginning to play as a new piece. Aren't the \nhierodules also pawns who can only move in one direction in time?\n\nBut they move in the opposite direction of Severian. Typhon says Severian \nplays for the black team, so his opposition must be the white team. Each \nside has players which are not pawns. Which side are we supposed to root \nfor??????????\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060525142111.57041.qmail@web51105.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-25T14:21:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hierodules & time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was Vodalus, not Typhon, who made the chess\nreference, and identified himself as playing the black\nside. I may be wrong -- if so, can b or someone else\npoint me to the Typhon reference?\n\nMacronaut" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\nBoth Tzadkiel and Typhon (I think it is him) make\nchessboard references to \nthe BotNS drama. Tzadkiel tells Severian that his\nis a race of pawns, who \ncan only move in one direction in time, unless they\nreach the end (Yesod) \nand are brought back to the beginning to play as a\nnew piece. Aren't the \nhierodules also pawns who can only move in one\ndirection in time?\n\nBut they move in the opposite direction of Severian.\nTyphon says Severian \nplays for the black team, so his opposition must be\nthe white team. Each \nside has players which are not pawns. Which side\nare we supposed to root \nfor??????????\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }