Subject: (urth) Hierodules & time

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 06:48:52 +0000

It is hierodules who are supposed to travel backwards through time, 

right? I always get the various hiero-levels mixed up.

Whatever, it's a really annoying plot device & I'm glad that Wolfe 
dropped it in the (far, far better, IMO) Long/Short Sun books.

If they actually do move backwards in time then surely this must be 

true of each instant. In which case how do they converse with Sev? 
It's fairly absurd to imagine them constructing sentences and then 
delivering them backwards. But it's even more absurd to imagine 
them delivering those backwards-sentences in response to, but 
before, comments made by Sev.

Unless they are lying for some reason about progressing backwards-
thru-time. Which would be equally annoying. 

Bah! Harumph.

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:15:35 +0000

There's a much simpler explanation. They age forward
(their personal timeline goes in the same direction as
anyone else's) but they are traveling backward via the
corridors of time. They are from the future moving
down the timeline to the past. And GW certainly didn't
drop time travel in the LS SS series, imo, but I'm of
the opinion that NS UotNS LS and SS are a single 12
volume novel rather than separate series set in the
same universe.

Don

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:21:44 +0000

On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:15:35 +1000 don doggett 
<kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote:
>down the timeline to the past.

Do what? <g>

Sorry, no doubt being dumb but I just don't understand that. If 
they are "from the future moving down the timeline to the past", 
wouldn't that correspond to what I wrote?

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:23:09 +0000

Replying to my own post, to clarify:

--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote:

> corridors of time. 

They are traveling via a device, not through the
"natural" process.

They are from the future moving
> down the timeline to the past. 

Meaning travelling backward is their job, their
assignment, rather than their nature.

Don

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:34:05 +0000

> Do what? <g>
 
Yeah, I realised that wasn't too clear so I reposted.
Basically they're just like you and me if we had a
time machine and Roy told  us to take it and always
travel backward, contacting GW Bush from his last days
in his presidency to his time travelling escapades in
First Dynasty Egypt. : )

---

From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:45:46 +0000

To further clarify this (how tacky on my part)
Famulimus, Barbatus only live for about twenty years,
so traveling by a machine is the way to maximize their
time with Sev. The reason they are travelling backward
is so they can be knowledgeable guides when Sev needs
it most, before he becomes Autarch and during his
early reign. There's really no need for them
(storywise) to age backward and I don't think that's
what's happening.

--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > (their personal timeline goes in the same
> direction
> > as

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:50:22 +0000

On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:34:05 +1000 don doggett 
>in his presidency to his time travelling escapades in

Yes, I certainly agree that's the best explanation, but I'm not 
sure it fits 100%. I *think* they say at some point that backwards-
thru-time is indeed their nature - on the Ship? Need to rummage 
around to see if I can find the passage. 

But mainly - why? It seems a very inconvenient way to plan a 
mission. I mean, I can see the point of them going back in time for 
(say) a first meeting with Baldanders, after which they move 
forward like everybody else. But that isn't what seems to happen: 
they've had interactions with Sev on Urth before (on their 
timeline) his first meeting with them (on his), which is also their 
last interaction with Baldanders (on *his* timeline) in his castle. 
So it would have to be something more complicated. Which would be, 
once again, annoying :)

A quick flip thru the archives shows somebody suggesting that 
Ossipago might temporarily reverse their time-flow for interactions 
with "normal" people. I guess that'd patch my conceptual hole here, 
if there were some evidence for it. But I still wouldn't like it.

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:03:44 +0000

Both Tzadkiel and Typhon (I think it is him) make chessboard references to 
the BotNS drama.  Tzadkiel tells Severian that his is a race of pawns, who 
can only move in one direction in time, unless they reach the end (Yesod) 
and are brought back to the beginning to play as a new piece. Aren't the 
hierodules also pawns who can only move in one direction in time?

But they move in the opposite direction of Severian. Typhon says Severian 
plays for the black team, so his opposition must be the white team.  Each 
side has players which are not pawns.  Which side are we supposed to root 
for??????????

-bsharp

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:21:11 +0000

I think it was Vodalus, not Typhon, who made the chess
reference, and identified himself as playing the black
side.  I may be wrong -- if so, can b or someone else
point me to the Typhon reference?

Macronaut