# Hierodules & time *The Urth list — 9 messages, 4 voices, 25 May 2006* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### thalassocrat at nym.hush.com *25 May 2006, 06:48* It is hierodules who are supposed to travel backwards through time, right? I always get the various hiero-levels mixed up. Whatever, it's a really annoying plot device & I'm glad that Wolfe dropped it in the (far, far better, IMO) Long/Short Sun books. If they actually do move backwards in time then surely this must be true of each instant. In which case how do they converse with Sev? It's fairly absurd to imagine them constructing sentences and then delivering them backwards. But it's even more absurd to imagine them delivering those backwards-sentences in response to, but before, comments made by Sev. Unless they are lying for some reason about progressing backwards- thru-time. Which would be equally annoying. Bah! Harumph. --- ### don doggett *25 May 2006, 07:15 · in reply to thalassocrat at nym.hush.com* There's a much simpler explanation. They age forward (their personal timeline goes in the same direction as anyone else's) but they are traveling backward via the corridors of time. They are from the future moving down the timeline to the past. And GW certainly didn't drop time travel in the LS SS series, imo, but I'm of the opinion that NS UotNS LS and SS are a single 12 volume novel rather than separate series set in the same universe. Don > --- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote: > It is hierodules who are supposed to travel > backwards through time, > > right? I always get the various hiero-levels mixed > up. > > Whatever, it's a really annoying plot device & I'm > glad that Wolfe > dropped it in the (far, far better, IMO) Long/Short > Sun books. > > If they actually do move backwards in time then > surely this must be > > true of each instant. In which case how do they > converse with Sev? > It's fairly absurd to imagine them constructing > sentences and then > delivering them backwards. But it's even more absurd > to imagine > them delivering those backwards-sentences in > response to, but > before, comments made by Sev. > > Unless they are lying for some reason about > progressing backwards- > thru-time. Which would be equally annoying. > > Bah! Harumph. > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### thalassocrat at nym.hush.com *25 May 2006, 07:21 · follows don doggett* > On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:15:35 +1000 don doggett > wrote: > There's a much simpler explanation. They age forward > (their personal timeline goes in the same direction as > anyone else's) but they are traveling backward via the > corridors of time. They are from the future moving > down the timeline to the past. Do what? Sorry, no doubt being dumb but I just don't understand that. If they are "from the future moving down the timeline to the past", wouldn't that correspond to what I wrote? --- ### don doggett *25 May 2006, 07:23 · in reply to don doggett* Replying to my own post, to clarify: > --- don doggett wrote: > There's a much simpler explanation. They age forward > (their personal timeline goes in the same direction > as > anyone else's) but they are traveling backward via > the > corridors of time. They are traveling via a device, not through the "natural" process. They are from the future moving > down the timeline to the past. Meaning travelling backward is their job, their assignment, rather than their nature. Don --- ### don doggett *25 May 2006, 07:34 · in reply to thalassocrat at nym.hush.com* > --- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote: > > Do what? Yeah, I realised that wasn't too clear so I reposted. Basically they're just like you and me if we had a time machine and Roy told us to take it and always travel backward, contacting GW Bush from his last days in his presidency to his time travelling escapades in First Dynasty Egypt. : ) --- ### don doggett *25 May 2006, 07:45 · in reply to don doggett* To further clarify this (how tacky on my part) Famulimus, Barbatus only live for about twenty years, so traveling by a machine is the way to maximize their time with Sev. The reason they are travelling backward is so they can be knowledgeable guides when Sev needs it most, before he becomes Autarch and during his early reign. There's really no need for them (storywise) to age backward and I don't think that's what's happening. > --- don doggett wrote: > Replying to my own post, to clarify: > > --- don doggett wrote: >> There's a much simpler explanation. They age >> forward >> (their personal timeline goes in the same >> direction >> as >> anyone else's) but they are traveling backward via >> the >> corridors of time. > They are traveling via a device, not through the > "natural" process. > > They are from the future moving > down the timeline to the past. > > Meaning travelling backward is their job, their > assignment, rather than their nature. > > Don > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ --- ### thalassocrat at nym.hush.com *25 May 2006, 07:50 · follows don doggett* > On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:34:05 +1000 don doggett > wrote: > --- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote: >> Do what? > Yeah, I realised that wasn't too clear so I reposted. > Basically they're just like you and me if we had a > time machine and Roy told us to take it and always > travel backward, contacting GW Bush from his last days > in his presidency to his time travelling escapades in > First Dynasty Egypt. : ) Yes, I certainly agree that's the best explanation, but I'm not sure it fits 100%. I *think* they say at some point that backwards- thru-time is indeed their nature - on the Ship? Need to rummage around to see if I can find the passage. But mainly - why? It seems a very inconvenient way to plan a mission. I mean, I can see the point of them going back in time for (say) a first meeting with Baldanders, after which they move forward like everybody else. But that isn't what seems to happen: they've had interactions with Sev on Urth before (on their timeline) his first meeting with them (on his), which is also their last interaction with Baldanders (on *his* timeline) in his castle. So it would have to be something more complicated. Which would be, once again, annoying :) A quick flip thru the archives shows somebody suggesting that Ossipago might temporarily reverse their time-flow for interactions with "normal" people. I guess that'd patch my conceptual hole here, if there were some evidence for it. But I still wouldn't like it. --- ### b sharp *25 May 2006, 12:03 · follows thalassocrat at nym.hush.com* Both Tzadkiel and Typhon (I think it is him) make chessboard references to the BotNS drama. Tzadkiel tells Severian that his is a race of pawns, who can only move in one direction in time, unless they reach the end (Yesod) and are brought back to the beginning to play as a new piece. Aren't the hierodules also pawns who can only move in one direction in time? But they move in the opposite direction of Severian. Typhon says Severian plays for the black team, so his opposition must be the white team. Each side has players which are not pawns. Which side are we supposed to root for?????????? -bsharp --- ### Macronaut *25 May 2006, 14:21 · in reply to b sharp* I think it was Vodalus, not Typhon, who made the chess reference, and identified himself as playing the black side. I may be wrong -- if so, can b or someone else point me to the Typhon reference? Macronaut > --- b sharp wrote: > Both Tzadkiel and Typhon (I think it is him) make > chessboard references to > the BotNS drama. Tzadkiel tells Severian that his > is a race of pawns, who > can only move in one direction in time, unless they > reach the end (Yesod) > and are brought back to the beginning to play as a > new piece. Aren't the > hierodules also pawns who can only move in one > direction in time? > > But they move in the opposite direction of Severian. > Typhon says Severian > plays for the black team, so his opposition must be > the white team. Each > side has players which are not pawns. Which side > are we supposed to root > for?????????? > > -bsharp > > > _______________________________________________ ---