{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4620", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4620, "subject": "Father Inire-Dorcas", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2006-05-26T03:16:48+00:00", "last": "2006-05-27T04:43:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T03:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire-Dorcas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, all these intertwined posts, combined with your reference to your \nsprawling Dear Dorcas post from days of yore, make it tough to respond in a \nconcise organized way. But I'll try.\n\nRegarding the tar stained boatman: He is responding to Severian's statement \n\"I saw Malrubius\" (under the water). Why would the boatman (or Mantis) \nthink \"Malrubius\" might refer to Dorcas if he were her husband? But if you \nwere Maxellindis' uncle, who has heard strange women's voices coming up from \nthe river, you might think \"Malrubius\" was one of their names.\n\nRegarding Dorcas' dead husband- After discussing his shop and Cas' death he \nsays an old acquaintance allows him to sleep in a loft; then \"There isn't a \npiece of cloisonne in it, or a garment, or so much as a nail from the old \nshop\". So I think he is sleeping above his old shop though he doesn't own it \nanymore. Thus Dorcas can easily find him and doesn't have to bring his dead \nbody there. Hey! Severian thinks people asleep look younger, good call! \nPerhaps he really isn't dead, making his later appearance as Rudesind more \npossible.\n\nRegarding Dorcas' personal malaise- Robert Borski correctly notes that the \ninvoked Erinyes (or Furies) have the special job of punishing those who \ntransgress against family members. But he incorrectly (as I see it) sees \ntheir target as Severian. It is Meschianne (and later Dorcas herself) who \ntalk about Erinyes being summoned against them.\n\nRoy I agree that all Dorcas' dreams seem to suggest she committed a crime \nagainst her child in her past life. Are you also suggesting she committed a \ncrime against her husband? Or that her husband committed a crime against \nher? (or both?) I think your post is unclear about that (but raising some \nvery tantalizing possibilities). Is her cheek scar evocative of Morwenna's \nor of Severian's? (both?)\n\nDorcas as vampire? I'll need a new post.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T03:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire-Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew I forgot one topic in my last post.\n\nRegarding Dorcas' husband as a ne'er do well, one person agrees with that, \nOuen. He doesn't appreciate being sent to clean pots at age 10, he is \npissed that his father put his mother's locket portrait in hock and was \nconvinced he was a better man than his father (though now he isn't sure)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002701c6809b$8a89a300$953ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-26T08:08:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire-Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nRegarding the tar stained boatman: He is responding to Severian's statement\n\"I saw Malrubius\" (under the water). Why would the boatman (or Mantis)\nthink \"Malrubius\" might refer to Dorcas if he were her husband? But if you\nwere Maxellindis' uncle, who has heard strange women's voices coming up\nfrom\nthe river, you might think \"Malrubius\" was one of their names." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was nearly two years after the near-drowning when the Uncle heard the\nvoices from the river, after Severian became autarch, and that was the only\ntime he heard them. \"Yes, I saw and I heard things. There was things in this\nriver I never saw before. Maxellindis, when she woke up and I told her about\nit, said it was the manatees. They're pale in moonlight and look human\nenough if you don't come too close. But I've seen 'em since I was a boy and\nnever been fooled once. And there was women's voices, not loud but big.\"\n(CITADEL, chapter XXXVII) The boatman in SHADOW can't be the Uncle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding Dorcas' dead husband- After discussing his shop and Cas' death\nhe\nsays an old acquaintance allows him to sleep in a loft; then \"There isn't a\npiece of cloisonne in it, or a garment, or so much as a nail from the old\nshop\". So I think he is sleeping above his old shop though he doesn't own\nit\nanymore. Thus Dorcas can easily find him and doesn't have to bring his\ndead\nbody there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After re-boarding the _Samru_, Severian didn't reach the Citadel until the\nsecond day after seeing Dorcas at the old shop in the abandoned part of the\ncity. The Boatman was old and frail and had only a small boat. It wasn't\npossible for him to live so far from the Gardens and keep up his near-daily\nsearch for his wife. That's why he lived near the Gardens.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T12:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire-Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "<002701c6809b$8a89a300$953ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, are you suggesting that every day, Dorcas' husband and Hildegrin put \ntheir boats on their backs and carried them up the Adamanian (what was that \nname?) stairs and past the Curator and through the Botanic Gardens and over \nto the Lake of Birds? Or floated them in from Gyoll right through the \naverns? Surely the boats stayed in the lake all the time.\n\nYou make the good point that the drowning occurred before the \"uncle\" had \nhis nixie experience. And I certainly respect your and Mantis' intuition \nthat the tar stained boatman is Mr. Dorcas. Dorcas has a \"newly built boat\" \nwhich also connects to a tar-stained boatman.\n\nOne thing which might make the identity point moot, is that they might all \nbe Father Inire. We are offered no physical description or name for \nMaxellindis' uncle which is suspicious for a character with that many lines. \n Severian snidely notes that the guy only \"calls himself the girl's uncle\" \n(I hope that quote is right). Not the strongest of clues but I think it \nsounds like our Lewis Carrollian Inire again. Do you think our lamial \nDorcas would be happy about Maxellindis? Small wonder she was happy to run \noff with Eata.\n\nI still think the text strongly suggests that Dorcas' husband lives in their \nold shop though it is left vague (I think I know why, see below). If he is \nreally Inire then your concern for the distance to travel becomes misplaced.\n\nWithin the House Absolute, Father Inire seems to have created a Secret House \nwhich is continuous or has instantaneous travel to Ultan' Library and \nRudesind's art gallery and (Severian suspects) other places in the Citadel. \nThere are hints these include the Witches Tower and The Atrium of Time and \nprobably others (more on those hints in future posts).\n\nI think it is a small leap of faith to think there are also connections to \nother key places in Nessus, like the Botanic Gardens. A connection to the \nHouse Azure would surely be a nice explanation for the mystery of where \nkaibits are from and how they (and Appian) get back and forth from the House \nAbsolute (the name similarity also suggests the connection).\n\nIf my (hardly ironclad) case for Dorcas' husband being Father Inire is \naccurate then surely he would add one of his connections from their shop to \nhis other special places. Dorcas' husband seems so old and frail, it is \ndifficult to imagine him walking every day from even a close-by house. And \nhow else would he end up (dead? sleeping?) in their shop down the river?\n\n(and Don Dogget is correct about my scenario, Appian, being human, looks the \nsame in all his roles. Father Inire can shapeshift, but naturally [since he \nis a story character] there is ALWAYS some clue to reveal him)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T15:52:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire-Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "just a couple of probably unnecessary notes:\n\nIn case I am accused of thinking all old men in BotNS are Father Inire, I \ndon't see any evidence for Master Ultan, Master Ash nor Malrubius, nor \nLlibio nor Becan's Dad, etc.\n\nOn multiple roles, Severian has a conversation with Appian that goes \nsomething like,\nS. \"I thought you said you were the autarch\"\nA. \"I did but I never said I was only the autarch\"\n\nI think this gives insight into Wolfe's attitude on the subject.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4477D8E9.9010006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-27T04:43:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire-Dorcas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n(and Don Dogget is correct about my scenario, Appian, being human, looks the \nsame in all his roles. Father Inire can shapeshift, but naturally [since he \nis a story character] there is ALWAYS some clue to reveal him)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think shapeshifting works best if left to the order of creature that \nTzadkiel is. Father Inire needn't change shape, because his human \nappearance is artificial, and can be changed to suit. Perhaps he wears \nhuman bodies drawn from a collection, similar to the way someone \nsuggested the Cumaean inhabits a succession of them?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }