Subject: (urth) Father Inire-Dorcas

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 03:16:48 +0000

Roy, all these intertwined posts, combined with your reference to your 
sprawling Dear Dorcas post from days of yore, make it tough to respond in a 
concise organized way. But I'll try.

Regarding the tar stained boatman: He is responding to Severian's statement 
"I saw Malrubius" (under the water).  Why would the boatman (or Mantis) 
think "Malrubius" might refer to Dorcas if he were her husband?  But if you 
were Maxellindis' uncle, who has heard strange women's voices coming up from 
the river, you might think "Malrubius" was one of their names.

Regarding Dorcas' dead husband-  After discussing his shop and Cas' death he 
says an old acquaintance allows him to sleep in a loft; then "There isn't a 
piece of cloisonne in it, or a garment, or so much as a nail from the old 
shop". So I think he is sleeping above his old shop though he doesn't own it 
anymore.  Thus Dorcas can easily find him and doesn't have to bring his dead 
body there.  Hey! Severian thinks people asleep look younger, good call!  
Perhaps he really isn't dead, making his later appearance as Rudesind more 
possible.

Regarding Dorcas' personal malaise- Robert Borski correctly notes that the 
invoked Erinyes (or Furies) have the special job of punishing those who 
transgress against family members. But he incorrectly (as I see it) sees 
their target as Severian. It is Meschianne (and later Dorcas herself) who 
talk about Erinyes being summoned against them.

Roy I agree that all Dorcas' dreams seem to suggest she committed a crime 
against her child in her past life.  Are you also suggesting she committed a 
crime against her husband?  Or that her husband committed a crime against 
her? (or both?)  I think your post is unclear about that (but raising some 
very tantalizing possibilities).  Is her cheek scar evocative of Morwenna's 
or of Severian's? (both?)

Dorcas as vampire? I'll need a new post.

-bsharp

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 03:21:57 +0000

I knew I forgot one topic in my last post.

Regarding Dorcas' husband as a ne'er do well, one person agrees with that, 
Ouen.  He doesn't appreciate being sent to clean pots at age 10, he is 
pissed that his father put his mother's locket portrait in hock and was 
convinced he was a better man than his father (though now he isn't sure).

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 08:08:07 +0000

>the river, you might think "Malrubius" was one of their names.

It was nearly two years after the near-drowning when the Uncle heard the
voices from the river, after Severian became autarch, and that was the only
time he heard them. "Yes, I saw and I heard things. There was things in this
river I never saw before. Maxellindis, when she woke up and I told her about
it, said it was the manatees. They're pale in moonlight and look human
enough if you don't come too close. But I've seen 'em since I was a boy and
never been fooled once. And there was women's voices, not loud but big."
(CITADEL, chapter XXXVII) The boatman in SHADOW can't be the Uncle.

>body there.

After re-boarding the _Samru_, Severian didn't reach the Citadel until the
second day after seeing Dorcas at the old shop in the abandoned part of the
city. The Boatman was old and frail and had only a small boat. It wasn't
possible for him to live so far from the Gardens and keep up his near-daily
search for his wife. That's why he lived near the Gardens.

-Roy

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:07:18 +0000

Roy, are you suggesting that every day, Dorcas' husband and Hildegrin put 
their boats on their backs and carried them up the Adamanian (what was that 
name?) stairs and past the Curator and through the Botanic Gardens and over 
to the Lake of Birds?  Or floated them in from Gyoll right through the 
averns? Surely the boats stayed in the lake all the time.

You make the good point that the drowning occurred before the "uncle" had 
his nixie experience. And I certainly respect your and Mantis' intuition 
that the tar stained boatman is Mr. Dorcas. Dorcas has a "newly built boat" 
which also connects to a tar-stained boatman.

One thing which might make the identity point moot, is that they might all 
be Father Inire. We are offered no physical description or name for 
Maxellindis' uncle which is suspicious for a character with that many lines. 
  Severian snidely notes that the guy only "calls himself the girl's uncle" 
(I hope that quote is right).  Not the strongest of clues but I think it 
sounds like our Lewis Carrollian Inire again.  Do you think our lamial 
Dorcas would be happy about Maxellindis? Small wonder she was happy to run 
off with Eata.

I still think the text strongly suggests that Dorcas' husband lives in their 
old shop though it is left vague (I think I know why, see below). If he is 
really Inire then your concern for the distance to travel becomes misplaced.

Within the House Absolute, Father Inire seems to have created a Secret House 
which is continuous or has instantaneous travel to Ultan' Library and 
Rudesind's art gallery and (Severian suspects) other places in the Citadel.  
There are hints these include the Witches Tower and The Atrium of Time and 
probably others (more on those hints in future posts).

I think it is a small leap of faith to think there are also connections to 
other key places in  Nessus, like the Botanic Gardens.  A connection to the 
House Azure would surely be a nice explanation for the mystery of where 
kaibits are from and how they (and Appian) get back and forth from the House 
Absolute (the name similarity also suggests the connection).

If my (hardly ironclad) case for Dorcas' husband being Father Inire is 
accurate then surely he would add one of his connections from their shop to 
his other special places.  Dorcas' husband seems so old and frail, it is 
difficult to imagine him walking every day from even a close-by house.  And 
how else would he end up (dead? sleeping?) in their shop down the river?

(and Don Dogget is correct about my scenario, Appian, being human, looks the 
same in all his roles.  Father Inire can shapeshift, but naturally [since he 
is a story character] there is ALWAYS some clue to reveal him)

-bsharp

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:52:15 +0000

just a couple of probably unnecessary notes:

In case I am accused of thinking all old men in BotNS are Father Inire, I 
don't see any evidence for Master Ultan, Master Ash nor Malrubius, nor 
Llibio nor Becan's Dad, etc.

On multiple roles, Severian has a conversation with Appian that goes 
something like,
S. "I thought you said you were the autarch"
A. "I did but I never said I was only the autarch"

I think this gives insight into Wolfe's attitude on the subject.

-bsharp

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 04:43:21 +0000

> is a story character] there is ALWAYS some clue to reveal him)

I think shapeshifting works best if left to the order of creature that 
Tzadkiel is. Father Inire needn't change shape, because his human 
appearance is artificial, and can be changed to suit. Perhaps he wears 
human bodies drawn from a collection, similar to the way someone 
suggested the Cumaean inhabits a succession of them?

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >