# Father Inire-Dorcas *The Urth list — 6 messages, 3 voices, 26 May 2006* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### b sharp *26 May 2006, 03:16* Roy, all these intertwined posts, combined with your reference to your sprawling Dear Dorcas post from days of yore, make it tough to respond in a concise organized way. But I'll try. Regarding the tar stained boatman: He is responding to Severian's statement "I saw Malrubius" (under the water). Why would the boatman (or Mantis) think "Malrubius" might refer to Dorcas if he were her husband? But if you were Maxellindis' uncle, who has heard strange women's voices coming up from the river, you might think "Malrubius" was one of their names. Regarding Dorcas' dead husband- After discussing his shop and Cas' death he says an old acquaintance allows him to sleep in a loft; then "There isn't a piece of cloisonne in it, or a garment, or so much as a nail from the old shop". So I think he is sleeping above his old shop though he doesn't own it anymore. Thus Dorcas can easily find him and doesn't have to bring his dead body there. Hey! Severian thinks people asleep look younger, good call! Perhaps he really isn't dead, making his later appearance as Rudesind more possible. Regarding Dorcas' personal malaise- Robert Borski correctly notes that the invoked Erinyes (or Furies) have the special job of punishing those who transgress against family members. But he incorrectly (as I see it) sees their target as Severian. It is Meschianne (and later Dorcas herself) who talk about Erinyes being summoned against them. Roy I agree that all Dorcas' dreams seem to suggest she committed a crime against her child in her past life. Are you also suggesting she committed a crime against her husband? Or that her husband committed a crime against her? (or both?) I think your post is unclear about that (but raising some very tantalizing possibilities). Is her cheek scar evocative of Morwenna's or of Severian's? (both?) Dorcas as vampire? I'll need a new post. -bsharp --- ### b sharp *26 May 2006, 03:21 · follows b sharp* I knew I forgot one topic in my last post. Regarding Dorcas' husband as a ne'er do well, one person agrees with that, Ouen. He doesn't appreciate being sent to clean pots at age 10, he is pissed that his father put his mother's locket portrait in hock and was convinced he was a better man than his father (though now he isn't sure). --- ### Roy C. Lackey *26 May 2006, 08:08 · follows b sharp* > b sharp wrote: > Regarding the tar stained boatman: He is responding to Severian's statement > "I saw Malrubius" (under the water). Why would the boatman (or Mantis) > think "Malrubius" might refer to Dorcas if he were her husband? But if you > were Maxellindis' uncle, who has heard strange women's voices coming up > from > the river, you might think "Malrubius" was one of their names. It was nearly two years after the near-drowning when the Uncle heard the voices from the river, after Severian became autarch, and that was the only time he heard them. "Yes, I saw and I heard things. There was things in this river I never saw before. Maxellindis, when she woke up and I told her about it, said it was the manatees. They're pale in moonlight and look human enough if you don't come too close. But I've seen 'em since I was a boy and never been fooled once. And there was women's voices, not loud but big." (CITADEL, chapter XXXVII) The boatman in SHADOW can't be the Uncle. > Regarding Dorcas' dead husband- After discussing his shop and Cas' death > he > says an old acquaintance allows him to sleep in a loft; then "There isn't a > piece of cloisonne in it, or a garment, or so much as a nail from the old > shop". So I think he is sleeping above his old shop though he doesn't own > it > anymore. Thus Dorcas can easily find him and doesn't have to bring his > dead > body there. After re-boarding the _Samru_, Severian didn't reach the Citadel until the second day after seeing Dorcas at the old shop in the abandoned part of the city. The Boatman was old and frail and had only a small boat. It wasn't possible for him to live so far from the Gardens and keep up his near-daily search for his wife. That's why he lived near the Gardens. -Roy --- ### b sharp *26 May 2006, 12:07 · follows Roy C. Lackey* Roy, are you suggesting that every day, Dorcas' husband and Hildegrin put their boats on their backs and carried them up the Adamanian (what was that name?) stairs and past the Curator and through the Botanic Gardens and over to the Lake of Birds? Or floated them in from Gyoll right through the averns? Surely the boats stayed in the lake all the time. You make the good point that the drowning occurred before the "uncle" had his nixie experience. And I certainly respect your and Mantis' intuition that the tar stained boatman is Mr. Dorcas. Dorcas has a "newly built boat" which also connects to a tar-stained boatman. One thing which might make the identity point moot, is that they might all be Father Inire. We are offered no physical description or name for Maxellindis' uncle which is suspicious for a character with that many lines. Severian snidely notes that the guy only "calls himself the girl's uncle" (I hope that quote is right). Not the strongest of clues but I think it sounds like our Lewis Carrollian Inire again. Do you think our lamial Dorcas would be happy about Maxellindis? Small wonder she was happy to run off with Eata. I still think the text strongly suggests that Dorcas' husband lives in their old shop though it is left vague (I think I know why, see below). If he is really Inire then your concern for the distance to travel becomes misplaced. Within the House Absolute, Father Inire seems to have created a Secret House which is continuous or has instantaneous travel to Ultan' Library and Rudesind's art gallery and (Severian suspects) other places in the Citadel. There are hints these include the Witches Tower and The Atrium of Time and probably others (more on those hints in future posts). I think it is a small leap of faith to think there are also connections to other key places in Nessus, like the Botanic Gardens. A connection to the House Azure would surely be a nice explanation for the mystery of where kaibits are from and how they (and Appian) get back and forth from the House Absolute (the name similarity also suggests the connection). If my (hardly ironclad) case for Dorcas' husband being Father Inire is accurate then surely he would add one of his connections from their shop to his other special places. Dorcas' husband seems so old and frail, it is difficult to imagine him walking every day from even a close-by house. And how else would he end up (dead? sleeping?) in their shop down the river? (and Don Dogget is correct about my scenario, Appian, being human, looks the same in all his roles. Father Inire can shapeshift, but naturally [since he is a story character] there is ALWAYS some clue to reveal him) -bsharp --- ### b sharp *26 May 2006, 15:52 · follows b sharp* just a couple of probably unnecessary notes: In case I am accused of thinking all old men in BotNS are Father Inire, I don't see any evidence for Master Ultan, Master Ash nor Malrubius, nor Llibio nor Becan's Dad, etc. On multiple roles, Severian has a conversation with Appian that goes something like, S. "I thought you said you were the autarch" A. "I did but I never said I was only the autarch" I think this gives insight into Wolfe's attitude on the subject. -bsharp --- ### Jeff Wilson *27 May 2006, 04:43 · in reply to b sharp* > b sharp wrote: > (and Don Dogget is correct about my scenario, Appian, being human, looks the > same in all his roles. Father Inire can shapeshift, but naturally [since he > is a story character] there is ALWAYS some clue to reveal him) I think shapeshifting works best if left to the order of creature that Tzadkiel is. Father Inire needn't change shape, because his human appearance is artificial, and can be changed to suit. Perhaps he wears human bodies drawn from a collection, similar to the way someone suggested the Cumaean inhabits a succession of them? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` ---