Dorcas as vampire

b sharp26 May 2006, 04:18

I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy, was fully explored. Hey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and ghosts, Frankenstein's monster, how can it leave out vampires? (and werewolfs (sic). there should be werewolfs in it). Well, Jolenta does get some suspicious cuts on her wrist in an area a bit too temperate for bloodbats. The cuts, as long as a thumb, do seem rather long for bat's teeth, though they do seep blood which doesn't clot. Do human vampires secrete anti-clot saliva? I think all Wolfe's refernces to vampirism are similarly vague. It is Dorcas who talks about sucking blood and vampires. But in the play, it is Meschianne who accuses Jahi of having fangs which run with venom. Moreover, Meschianne is worried that Jahi will mate with Meschia, as she did in the first creation, and her offspring will thus pollute humanity's purity as they did the first time around. Jahi is a persian goddes of debauchery but that last bit sounds just like the Lilith myth (or maybe Wolfe learned that Lilith and Jahi are the same myth? Anyways...On Lilith:

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God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that He used filth >and sediment instead of pure dust.

maybe a lump of filth? Interesting. more...

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From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's >sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations >later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'.

Seat of judgement, interesting. Continuing......

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Lilith's flight to the Red Sea recalls the ancient Hebrew view that water attracts demons.

Not repels. okay, more.......

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To protect the newborn child against Lilith- and especially a male, until he could be permanently >safeguarded by circumcision-a ring was drawn with natron, or charcoal, on the wall of the >birthroom, and inside it were written the words: 'Adam and Eve. Out, Lilith!'

This reminds me of the design Agia scratches for some reason. and....

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fourth-century A.D. commentator Hieronymus identified Lilith with the Greek Lamia, a Libyan >queen deserted by Zeus, whom his wife Hera robbed of her children (by making her eat them). >She took revenge by robbing other women of theirs.

Agia jokes with Severian about having a silver lamia on her neck. and finally......

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The Lamiae, who seduced sleeping men, sucked their blood and ate their flesh, as Lilith and her >fellow-demonesses did, were also known as Empusae, 'forcers-in'; or Mormolyceia, 'frightening >wolves'; and described as 'Children of Hecate'

So the lamia myth spread north to Transylvania, got Vlad the Impaler mixed up in it and....vampires. Does all this have any meaning to BotNS? Not a clear one that I can see other than maybe all women have a bit of Lilith in them? It may help explain why Ushas had to be created by washing away all of the extant humanity. There are so many vague connections to the storyline and vocabulary it seems like the Lilith myth, lamia and vampires have to be significant. (http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm) -bsharp

don doggett26 May 2006, 04:55

↳ in reply to b sharp

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--- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote: I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy, was fully explored. Hey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and ghosts, Frankenstein's monster, how can it leave out vampires? (and werewolfs (sic). there should be werewolfs in it). Well, Jolenta does get some suspicious cuts on her wrist in an area a bit too temperate for bloodbats. The cuts, as long as a thumb, do seem rather long for bat's teeth, though they do seep blood which doesn't clot. Do human vampires secrete anti-clot saliva?

There's a theory these are the inhumi of Green in the Short Sun books, and it's curious that the main inhumu besides Krait is named Jahli, but it's a fringe theory (though I support it) and it's best researched through the archives. Don

Adam Thornton26 May 2006, 14:02

↳ in reply to b sharp

3 quoted lines · depth 3

On May 25, 2006, at 11:18 PM, b sharp wrote: later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'.

I just wanted to sing, "Hi, ho, Kafoozalem, the harlot of Jerusalem/ Prostitute of ill-repute/And daughter of the rabbi" OK, I'll be good now. Adam

Adam Thornton26 May 2006, 17:19

↳ in reply to don doggett

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On May 25, 2006, at 11:55 PM, don doggett wrote: --- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:

I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy, was fully explored. Hey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and ghosts, Frankenstein's monster, how can it leave out vampires? (and werewolfs (sic). there should be werewolfs in it). Well, Jolenta does get some suspicious cuts on her wrist in an area a bit too temperate for bloodbats. The cuts, as long as a thumb, do seem rather long for bat's teeth, though they do seep blood which doesn't clot. Do human vampires secrete anti-clot saliva?

There's a theory these are the inhumi of Green in the Short Sun books, and it's curious that the main inhumu besides Krait is named Jahli, but it's a fringe theory (though I support it) and it's best researched through the archives.

I've often wondered how much of Short Sun Wolfe knew when writing New Sun. I ask because I find Inire to be strangely reminiscent of (SPOILER FOR SHORT SUN) Patera Quetzal. Adam

James Wynn26 May 2006, 18:03

↳ follows, by subject match Adam Thornton

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--- b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:

I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy, was fully explored. Hey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and ghosts, Frankenstein's monster, how can it leave out vampires? (and werewolfs (sic). there should be werewolfs in it).

Avoiding spoilers, I can confidently assert that the Long Sun/Short Sun (which I consider a single novel), has ghosts, vampires, AND werewolves\(skin-changers). In fact, the name of the city of Viron is a subtle reference to werewolves. There's even a creature from the Black Lagoon and plenty of references to the golem of Prague (which is a kind of Frankenstein's monster). I can't think of an Invisible Man. J

mournings glory26 May 2006, 18:17

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>

Avoiding spoilers, I can confidently assert that the Long Sun/Short Sun (which I consider a single novel), has ghosts, vampires, AND werewolves\(skin-changers). In fact, the name of the city of Viron is a subtle reference to werewolves. There's even a creature from the Black Lagoon and plenty of references to the golem of Prague (which is a kind of Frankenstein's monster). I can't think of an Invisible Man.

Patera Pike's ghost? m

James Wynn26 May 2006, 20:44

↳ follows, by subject match mournings glory

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I can't think of an Invisible Man.

Patera Pike's ghost?

Ah! Well, he's hardly invisible, is he? But then there is Hyacinth's father who is frequently referenced, converses with Silk, but never actually shows up in the story. J