{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4621", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4621, "subject": "Dorcas as vampire", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-05-26T04:18:15+00:00", "last": "2006-05-26T20:44:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T04:18:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy, was fully explored. \nHey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and ghosts, Frankenstein's \nmonster, how can it leave out vampires? (and werewolfs (sic). there should \nbe werewolfs in it).\n\nWell, Jolenta does get some suspicious cuts on her wrist in an area a bit \ntoo temperate for bloodbats. The cuts, as long as a thumb, do seem rather \nlong for bat's teeth, though they do seep blood which doesn't clot. Do \nhuman vampires secrete anti-clot saliva?\n\nI think all Wolfe's refernces to vampirism are similarly vague. It is \nDorcas who talks about sucking blood and vampires. But in the play, it is \nMeschianne who accuses Jahi of having fangs which run with venom. Moreover, \nMeschianne is worried that Jahi will mate with Meschia, as she did in the \nfirst creation, and her offspring will thus pollute humanity's purity as \nthey did the first time around.\n\nJahi is a persian goddes of debauchery but that last bit sounds just like \nthe Lilith myth (or maybe Wolfe learned that Lilith and Jahi are the same \nmyth? Anyways...On Lilith:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except \nthat He used filth >and sediment instead of pure dust." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "maybe a lump of filth? Interesting. more..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named \nNaamah, Tubal Cain's >sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that \nstill plague mankind. Many generations >later, Lilith and Naamah came to \nSolomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seat of judgement, interesting. Continuing......" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lilith's flight to the Red Sea recalls the ancient Hebrew view that water \nattracts demons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not repels. okay, more......." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To protect the newborn child against Lilith- and especially a male, until \nhe could be permanently >safeguarded by circumcision-a ring was drawn with \nnatron, or charcoal, on the wall of the >birthroom, and inside it were \nwritten the words: 'Adam and Eve. Out, Lilith!'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of the design Agia scratches for some reason. and...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "fourth-century A.D. commentator Hieronymus identified Lilith with the Greek \nLamia, a Libyan >queen deserted by Zeus, whom his wife Hera robbed of her \nchildren (by making her eat them). >She took revenge by robbing other women \nof theirs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia jokes with Severian about having a silver lamia on her neck. and \nfinally......" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Lamiae, who seduced sleeping men, sucked their blood and ate their \nflesh, as Lilith and her >fellow-demonesses did, were also known as \nEmpusae, 'forcers-in'; or Mormolyceia, 'frightening >wolves'; and described \nas 'Children of Hecate'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the lamia myth spread north to Transylvania, got Vlad the Impaler mixed \nup in it and....vampires.\n\nDoes all this have any meaning to BotNS? Not a clear one that I can see \nother than maybe all women have a bit of Lilith in them? It may help \nexplain why Ushas had to be created by washing away all of the extant \nhumanity. There are so many vague connections to the storyline and \nvocabulary it seems like the Lilith myth, lamia and vampires have to be \nsignificant.\n(http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060526045520.28761.qmail@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T04:55:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\nI don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy,\nwas fully explored. \nHey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and\nghosts, Frankenstein's \nmonster, how can it leave out vampires? (and\nwerewolfs (sic). there should \nbe werewolfs in it).\n\nWell, Jolenta does get some suspicious cuts on her\nwrist in an area a bit \ntoo temperate for bloodbats. The cuts, as long as a\nthumb, do seem rather \nlong for bat's teeth, though they do seep blood\nwhich doesn't clot. Do \nhuman vampires secrete anti-clot saliva?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a theory these are the inhumi of Green in the\nShort Sun books, and it's curious that the main inhumu\nbesides Krait is named Jahli, but it's a fringe theory\n(though I support it) and it's best researched through\nthe archives.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E31E2B4-6A34-4502-BF56-991391ED7EBD@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T14:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On May 25, 2006, at 11:18 PM, b sharp wrote:\nlater, Lilith and Naamah came to\nSolomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just wanted to sing, \"Hi, ho, Kafoozalem, the harlot of Jerusalem/ \nProstitute of ill-repute/And daughter of the rabbi\"\n\nOK, I'll be good now.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E7347B1-8900-4566-80F5-9320CB138FE6@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T17:19:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": "<20060526045520.28761.qmail@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 25, 2006, at 11:55 PM, don doggett wrote:\n\n\n--- b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy,\nwas fully explored.\nHey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and\nghosts, Frankenstein's\nmonster, how can it leave out vampires? (and\nwerewolfs (sic). there should\nbe werewolfs in it).\n\nWell, Jolenta does get some suspicious cuts on her\nwrist in an area a bit\ntoo temperate for bloodbats. The cuts, as long as a\nthumb, do seem rather\nlong for bat's teeth, though they do seep blood\nwhich doesn't clot. Do\nhuman vampires secrete anti-clot saliva?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a theory these are the inhumi of Green in the\nShort Sun books, and it's curious that the main inhumu\nbesides Krait is named Jahli, but it's a fringe theory\n(though I support it) and it's best researched through\nthe archives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've often wondered how much of Short Sun Wolfe knew when writing New \nSun.\n\nI ask because I find Inire to be strangely reminiscent of (SPOILER \nFOR SHORT SUN)\n\f\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nPatera Quetzal.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1200191.1148666589071.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-05-26T18:03:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": "<7E7347B1-8900-4566-80F5-9320CB138FE6@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think this topic, broached long ago by Roy,\nwas fully explored.\nHey, BotNS has ghouls and zombies, witches and\nghosts, Frankenstein's\nmonster, how can it leave out vampires? (and\nwerewolfs (sic). there should\nbe werewolfs in it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Avoiding spoilers, I can confidently assert that the\nLong Sun/Short Sun (which I consider a single novel),\nhas ghosts, vampires, AND werewolves\\(skin-changers).\nIn fact, the name of the city of Viron is a subtle\nreference to werewolves. There's even a creature from\nthe Black Lagoon and plenty of references to the golem\nof Prague (which is a kind of Frankenstein's monster).\n\nI can't think of an Invisible Man.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-26T18:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": "<1200191.1148666589071.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Avoiding spoilers, I can confidently assert that the\nLong Sun/Short Sun (which I consider a single novel),\nhas ghosts, vampires, AND werewolves\\(skin-changers).\nIn fact, the name of the city of Viron is a subtle\nreference to werewolves. There's even a creature from\nthe Black Lagoon and plenty of references to the golem\nof Prague (which is a kind of Frankenstein's monster).\n\nI can't think of an Invisible Man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Patera Pike's ghost?\n\nm" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2120045.1148676296159.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-05-26T20:44:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas as vampire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't think of an Invisible Man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Patera Pike's ghost?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Well, he's hardly invisible, is he?\n\nBut then there is Hyacinth's father who is frequently referenced,\nconverses with Silk, but never actually shows up in the story.\n\nJ" } ] } ] }