Subject: (urth) monsters and names

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:54:03 +0000

b sharp says:

>Well, interesting. It seems there are at least two or three here who flout 
>the naming convention that urth humans have saint names and aliens have 
>mythological names in BotNS. So Typhon (hundred headed Greek demon), 
>Baldanders (Borges growing giant) and presumably Talos (bronze man, foe of 
>Jason) are humans in BotNS.

Coming late to this, but it is verifiably not *humans* that are named after saints.
It is citizens of the Commonwealth who are.  Ascians are not named after saints.
Alternately, Typhon's daughter (and I presume we can extrapolate the others as
well) IS named after a saint.

Later, the crew and cargo of the Whorl will not have saint names.

So were Abia, Erebus, Scylla, etc originally human or were they "aliens"? IMO
Likely they were originally human. There is certainly nothing especially
inhuman about Typhon in appearance -- except that one little thing, and that
*is* a human body he's got, right? Until the Neighbors and the Inhumi, are
there any sentient beings in the entire Sun Cycle that are positively not
human or decended from humans?

Isn't there something *Wolfe himself* wrote or said either in one of the BotNS
appendices, Castle of the Otter, or in an interview in which he discusses that
one obvious way to extend human life indefinitely is to extend growth? 
I'd bet a body part that there is, although I can't remember the location right now.

J

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From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:20:59 +0000

>It is citizens of the Commonwealth who are.

Ah, yes. I stand corrected. Only human citizens of the Commonwealth are 
named after saints.

>Later, the crew and cargo of the Whorl will not have saint names.

My own small correction here: the hypernaut sleepers still retain their 
saintly names; e.g., Mamelta and Roger.

em

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:50:31 +0000

James makes a good correction on the saint names being for those humans of 
the Commonwealth, not all humans.

>one obvious way to extend human life indefinitely is to extend growth?

Ossipago (bonegrower) says it toward the end of Sword and that topic was 
discussed in more  depth in some of the (mine included) Baldanders posts of 
this month.

James asks:
>Until the Neighbors and the Inhumi, are there any sentient beings in the 
>entire Sun Cycle that are >positively not human or decended from humans?

Would you consider the original Jonas (and his brothers), Sidero etc. to be 
examples?  Someone recently asked how Talus brains were made and the same 
question could be asked about these mechanical men from ship Tzadkiel.  If 
their brains were programmed from scratch then I think the answer to your 
question is yes.

But if their brains were created by the process which created Mr. Million, 
scanning a human brain,  then I'd call them human descended.  Since I 
strongly suspect BotNS takes place in the 5th Head of Cerberus universe I 
think mechanical brains are human in origin.

-bsharp

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:08:54 +0000

>>Says I:
>>it is verifiably not *humans* that are named after saints.
>Ah, yes. I stand corrected. Only human citizens of the Commonwealth are 

Heh heh heh...That leaves a lot of room for different naming conventions.
But I agree that it strongly *does* imply that Typhon & Co were not born
in the Commonwealth.

I queried:
>>Isn't there something *Wolfe himself* wrote or said either in one of
>>the BotNS appendices, Castle of the Otter, or in an interview in which
>>he discusses that one obvious way to extend human life indefinitely is
>>to extend growth?

>discussed in more  depth in some of the (mine included) Baldanders posts of 

I was pretty sure there was something "extra-narrative" about it.

b sharp said:
>...the original Jonas (and his brothers), Sidero etc. to be 
>examples? 

Well, being made by humans, they are "decended" from humans.
I presume the Hierogrammates to be "decended" from humans in
just such a way. If there had been no humans, the Hierogrammates
would never have existed. The same with any beings made by the
Hierogrammates such as subsequent Severians.

J

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 01:18:08 +0000

>>entire Sun Cycle that are >positively not human or decended from humans?

Iirc, there were aliens serving as crewmen on other decks of Tzadkiel's
ship. But the most obvious groups are all those beings who were manipulated
by the Hieros to engineer the Hierogrammates. Mankind's great sin. ("The key
to the Universe", CITADEL)

-Roy