{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4628",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4628,
    "subject": "Rudesind of the Apes and Shapes(hifting)",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2006-05-27T15:25:02+00:00",
    "last": "2006-05-27T15:25:02+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<BAY103-F46094BE1DBF352E797F36D79F0@phx.gbl>",
      "from": {
        "name": "b sharp",
        "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2006-05-27T15:25:02+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Rudesind of the Apes and Shapes(hifting)",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Roy and Mournings glory write:\n\nR:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I wrote:  >I see no evidence of shape-shifting in NEW SUN,\n\nI take that back; Tzadkiel could do it."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "M:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "So, too, I believe, could his son, Venant -- unless you're going to argue \nhe naturally looks like the very human, if false, Epitome of Urth."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Severian calls Venant a hierarch just as he does Apheta.  The larvae of a \nHierogrammate seem to be of human form (if you ignore a stump tongue and \nbioluminescent sexual arousal).  The false Epitome of Urth was Zak/Tzadkiel \nI think.\n\nRegarding evidence of shape-shifting, did we really see any for Tzadkiel?  \nWe saw various creatures and people of different shapes which Severian tied \ntogether in his mind from circumstantial evidence including conversations \nwith the people. He/we never saw any shape shifting.  We did directly see \nTzadkiel's finger become a smaller version of her but that is really \nsize-shifting isn't it?  She kept the same shape.\n\nI'm not really trying to outdo Roy in Royness but rather make a point about \nevidence.  There is evidence for shapeshifting in BotNS though most of it is \nlegendary. Let's say  Earth (not urth) was a storybook.  In that book we \nfind legends of dragons, pegasus, hobbits and King Arthur. Should we dismiss \nthem as legends?  Or should we search through the past, digging through dirt \nand historical records?  We might find dinosaurs and Homo erectus and the \nPendragon family.\n\nAnd we might not find Pegasus.  Should we keep digging? Some mystic/mythic \nminded people might say yes.  Science-minded people would look at the \nscientific evidence (Eohippus through Equus, bird wing physiology) and say \nno.  We all build mosaic pictures of the world and some pieces fit and some \ndon't.  Naturally, we reject those that don't fit unless we are willing to \nradically change our mosaic picture.\n\nNow, as Urth archaeologists, we can't physically dig and sift its dirt \n(polychrome sand) but we can dig and sift through the confusing text.  We \ncan't read alternate Urth history books (except perhaps 5th Head), but we \ncan read Earth legends and history which clearly inspired BotNS and hope to \nglean more tiles for our mosaic picture.\n\nUnlike Earth (as far as we know), Urth is a place where time travel occurs. \nFor this reason, shadows from the past AND the future can create legends.  \nIt also means that the source of legends, past and future, can appear right \nin front of Urth residents.\n\nSo, when Roy says \"I see no evidence of shape-shifting in NEW SUN,\", is he \nsaying Urth legends are not evidence? Or that shape-shifting is a pegasus, a \npiece which does not fit his mental picture?\n\n-bsharp"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}