{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4629", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4629, "subject": "Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-05-27T17:24:06+00:00", "last": "2006-05-31T05:03:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-27T17:24:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you find it impossible that 5th Head of Cerberus could be part of the \nhistory before BotNS, then you should skip this first paragraph. In this \nbook we see (very hazily) that during a wave of human space migration, they \nencounter an alien shape-shifting species which can imitate humans almost \nexactly, manual dexterity being the most difficult part. Dr Veil (Aunt \nJeannine) teaches that shape-shifting to imitate a human cannot be perfect \nbecause that would involve losing the ability to shape-shift. And evolution \nwould not allow for a creature to lose its most advantageous trait.\n\nIn BotNS, Melito's story contains an angel with shapeshifting ability. This \nangel can give away its shapeshifting ability for a while then take it back. \n We know that angels are divinely created, not evolved like beasts. Still \nthe angel cannot give up one thing, which its essential essence as a divine \ncreation. Therefore it needs to call in an actual (evolved) eagle to take \nits place in a birdfight.\n\nWe don't actually see Zak and Tzadkiel shape-shift but he presents the \nclearest evidence for shape-shifting. We learn from Severian that one of the \ndeepest instincts of a shape-shifting, imitating creature must be to run \naway when the masquerade is discovered. In 5th Head, Number Five is able to \nchase Dr. Marsch away by insisting he is an abo from Sainte Anne imitating a \nhuman.\n\nSo who better than Tzadkiel to explain shape-shifting to Severian? She \nexplains that, \"the cells of our bodies shift, like those of certain sea \ncreatures on your Urth (sponges I think) which can be pressed through a \nscreen yet reunite. What then prevents me from shaping a miniature and \nconstricting the connection until it parts?\" So, Roy (as we both knew), \nsize-shifting really is a function of shape-shifting. But now we have a \nPoriferal mechanism to explain it.\n\nSeverian also tells Tzadkiel that he has been told two stories with \nshapeshifting in them but he asks about only one of them, Melito's angel \nstory. Tzadkiel assures Severian that he can't give that ability to humans \n(including larval Hierogrammates). But what about the other story?\n\nI think he means Foila's story which is interesting (and the best IMHO). \nThe Armiger's Daughter seems to appear in three guises, as a masked horse \nrider, as a sort of bird-person and as an angel with a sword. She is marked \nin each guise by the color brown and a gold ring on her ankle. Her arm is \nhurt while she is a horserider and the wound is maintained when she becomes \nthe bird- person (it isn't mentioned for the angel). She is not observed \nflying as a bird or angel, so perhaps the shape-shifting is in appearance \nonly and not substance. We are told that the beliefs of her land include \nthat shape-changers will not change once they have been made prisoner.\n\nSo......as I see it, this evidence suggests these BotNS principles: that \nshape shifters are most likely to be found in the past, the future and on \nplanets other than Urth. Time and space travel make it possible for \nshapeshifters to travel to Urth. If so, they will go through great lengths \nto hide themselves and their abilities. The imitation can never be perfect \nand they will always be marked by some sign of their original nature. They \nwon't shift in front of our eyes, or while imprisoned. The shape change may \nbe just visual illusion in some cases, but can be of substance in other \ncases.\n\nNow, perhaps Gene Wolfe has created an Urth in which shape-shifting legends \nand aliens could visit, but never do. Perhaps the abos of Sainte Anne were \nwiped out and that's all there is to the story. Maybe the Urth stories \nwithin the story are no more than pure fiction. Perhaps dinosaurs are not \ndragons, just bones. Maybe these myths and legends are just a fun way for \nWolfe to place false clues and mislead fanciful readers who might still, in \ntheir hearts, long for a Pegasus. We each have our own view on that, I \nthink.\n\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c68293$2e8e02e0$e63ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-28T20:13:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bsharp wrote a well crafted little essay that I almost wish I didn't have to\ntake issue with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you find it impossible that 5th Head of Cerberus could be part of the\nhistory before BotNS, then you should skip this first paragraph. In this\nbook we see (very hazily) that during a wave of human space migration, they\nencounter an alien shape-shifting species which can imitate humans almost\nexactly, manual dexterity being the most difficult part. Dr Veil (Aunt\nJeannine) teaches that shape-shifting to imitate a human cannot be perfect\nbecause that would involve losing the ability to shape-shift. And evolution\nwould not allow for a creature to lose its most advantageous trait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "5HC may have taken place in Urth's past, but if so it was a very distant\npast and for that reason little or no more related to the Sun Cycle than\nPEACE or PANDORA, which may also have taken place in Earth's/Urth's past.\nThe level of technology evidenced in 5HC does not seem to be all that much\nadvanced from what we have on Earth today, or, more properly, what has been\nenvisioned for decades by many science fiction writers to be available in\nthe relatively near future. But the more telling indicator that 5HC is not\nfar removed from our present is the pronounced French and English influence\nevidenced on the twin planets. Historical enmity between the two nations on\nEarth has obviously been extended to the colonies. The Urth of Severian's\nday is so many thousands of years in the future of either country that\nneither of them exists, even as a legend. The \"Saint\" part of the colony\nnames shows a strong Christian influence, whereas on Urth Christ has been\nlong forgotten.\n\nIf the twin planets in 5HC had a place in Urth's history, it would have to\nhave been early in the First Empire, a time that had long passed before\nTyphon came on the scene and tried to rekindle a second empire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, perhaps Gene Wolfe has created an Urth in which shape-shifting legends\nand aliens could visit, but never do. Perhaps the abos of Sainte Anne were\nwiped out and that's all there is to the story. Maybe the Urth stories\nwithin the story are no more than pure fiction. Perhaps dinosaurs are not\ndragons, just bones. Maybe these myths and legends are just a fun way for\nWolfe to place false clues and mislead fanciful readers who might still, in\ntheir hearts, long for a Pegasus. We each have our own view on that, I\nthink." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now how the hell am I supposed to argue with that? \n\nEarlier, bsharp asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, when Roy says \"I see no evidence of shape-shifting in NEW SUN,\", is he\nsaying Urth legends are not evidence? Or that shape-shifting is a pegasus,\na piece which does not fit his mental picture?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes to the first question, with the exception of Tzadkiel, previously noted,\nwho isn't a legend -- in the story. Yes to the second question, also. I\nrealize that to ask you to point out your \"Pegasus\" in the text would be\nunfair, given the nature of what we have to work with, but at least show me\nthe bones and feathers of a flying horse. I don't think you can. Belief\nisn't proof -- and I'm hardheaded.\n\nI don't see that any plot purpose would be served by a shape-shifting Inire.\nHe remained the power behind the throne for the decade of Severian's\nautarchy. Severian's first manuscript was written at the end of that decade.\nHow could he have remained ignorant of Inire's alleged abilities for so\nlong, and if he wasn't ignorant of them, why would he have concealed that\nknowledge from his theoretical readers? After learning of Tzadkiel's\nabilities, why would he not have connected Inire to such an ability, if he\nthought Inire had it, and said something about it in his second manuscript,\nwhere Inire is hardly even mentioned? The show was all over when he wrote\nthe second manuscript, the deed was done; why hide it?\n\nWe learn from Tzadkiel that less than fully-mature Hierogrammates cannot\nchange their shape. We know that Inire was a cacogen. Therefore he would\nhave to be a Hierogrammate on the order of Tzadkiel in order to change\nshape, or else be a member of another species that has that ability, and who\nis *also* working for Tzadkiel, in effect a \"holy slave\". I don't think that\nInire is a Hierogrammate. The Hierodules were created by the Hierogrammates\nto tamper with human destiny, and Tzadkiel said that the ability to\nshape-shift cannot be designated. Though Inire need not belong to the same\nspecies as B and F, who do not seem to have that ability, it seems to me a\nstretch that Wolfe would create a character with that ability, when no\nmeaningful plot purpose is served.\n\nWhy would a being who could make himself look like a man call attention to\nhimself by running around a lazaret looking like a monkey if he had a choice\nin the mater?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T22:20:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c68293$2e8e02e0$e63ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, thanks for the responsive and thoughtful (in both senses of the word) \npost.\n\nIn regards to 5th Head, I do have a sense of the time frame and when I say I \nthink they belong in the same universe I don't mean the immediate story \nblends right into BotNS. But Sainte Anne and Sainte Croix don't just \ndisappear when the 5th Head story ends. They have a future and I see the \nestablished principles there appear in BotNS. If you don't see cloning or \nshapeshifting or characters similar to #5 and Phaedria then okay, I do \naccept that. It may be a complete illusion or just a function of Gene \nWolfe's subconscious interests in that period of his life that I see but, \nwhat can I say. I see it.\n\nPerhaps my Atrium of Time post will be more to your liking. It is very nuts \nand bolts.\n\nHuman beings have different sort of brains and it can be nearly impossible \nfor unilke brains to see eye to eye. So instead I'll use this post to \nillustrate not my \"rightness\" but to illustrate my current position. \nSo..take a look at this picture:\n\nhttp://www.valerio.net/pictures/image_2_996.jpg\n\nWhat are your first thoughts? Mine are, \"okay, a ring\" and \"where is the \njewel?\". Now to me, Roy and mournings glory stop with, \"okay a ring\".\n\nIf I say \"where is the jewel?\" they say a ring doesn't need a jewel. I say \nbut \"there is a jewel missing!\" They say \"we have no reason to think that. \nA ring is a round piece of metal that goes around your finger and looks \npretty. This object is a ring, it has all the attributes of a ring, end of \nstory, no jewel needed.\" \"But there is an empty space...never mind, let me \nlook around\".\n\nSo, I go looking for the missing jewel. I find a few that don't fit. I \nfind one on the floor, under the table. I try putting it in the empty space \nbetween the tines and it seems to fit. Roy and mg say, the jewel is \nworthless or interesting, but adds nothing to the purpose of the ring. \"It \ndoesn't make it rounder, or more metallic or fit your finger better or \nprettier\". I say, \"well I think it might make it prettier, depending on \ntaste and it makes the ring richer and more valuable but...welll....anyway, \nlook, there are tines which hold jewels and the tines are empty and here is \na jewel in the right place, at the right time, with the right shape....\". \nThen I give up and write this post.\n\nIn the meantime I have my original inspriation for joining here, Robert \nBorski, yelling over my shoulder from his book that the four doubled tines \nrepresent the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, which makes it obvious the \nmissing jewel is the Star of Nepal. The filigree on the side of the ring \nlooks North African and thus represents the theft of the Star of Nepal by \nthe Bey of Tunis. Using cryptonymic analysis we reverse Bey to achieve the \nword YEB, and we know that in Semitic languages a J has a Y sound so the \nring means the next president of the USA will be you know who.\n\nA day in the life of Bsharp. How I suffer in the middle LOL! In \nseriousness I appreciate all the input, guidance and collaboration I've \nfound in this community so far. It has been just great.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060528235838.9F9EE33C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T23:58:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 29 May 2006 08:20:48 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nSo..take a look at this picture:\n\nhttp://www.valerio.net/pictures/image_2_996.jpg\n\nWhat are your first thoughts? Mine are, \"okay, a ring\" and \"where \nis the \njewel?\". Now to me, Roy and mournings glory stop with, \"okay a \nring\".\n\nIf I say \"where is the jewel?\" they say a ring doesn't need a \njewel. I say \nbut \"there is a jewel missing!\" They say \"we have no reason to \nthink that. \nA ring is a round piece of metal that goes around your finger and \nlooks \npretty. This object is a ring, it has all the attributes of a \nring, end of \nstory, no jewel needed.\" \"But there is an empty space...never \nmind, let me \nlook around\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's the real dichotomy. Better: \"Here's a nice \nshiny jewel - let's shove it in the ring!\" vs \"But it doesn't fit, \nand if you scratch it, it flakes. Let's find a real gem that fits.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T00:20:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What you are primarily missing here, I think, is a reference to the \nTemplars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy, thanks for the responsive and thoughtful (in both senses of the word)\npost.\n\nIn regards to 5th Head, I do have a sense of the time frame and when I say \nI\nthink they belong in the same universe I don't mean the immediate story\nblends right into BotNS. But Sainte Anne and Sainte Croix don't just\ndisappear when the 5th Head story ends. They have a future and I see the\nestablished principles there appear in BotNS. If you don't see cloning or\nshapeshifting or characters similar to #5 and Phaedria then okay, I do\naccept that. It may be a complete illusion or just a function of Gene\nWolfe's subconscious interests in that period of his life that I see but,\nwhat can I say. I see it.\n\nPerhaps my Atrium of Time post will be more to your liking. It is very nuts\nand bolts.\n\nHuman beings have different sort of brains and it can be nearly impossible\nfor unilke brains to see eye to eye. So instead I'll use this post to\nillustrate not my \"rightness\" but to illustrate my current position.\nSo..take a look at this picture:\n\nhttp://www.valerio.net/pictures/image_2_996.jpg\n\nWhat are your first thoughts? Mine are, \"okay, a ring\" and \"where is the\njewel?\". Now to me, Roy and mournings glory stop with, \"okay a ring\".\n\nIf I say \"where is the jewel?\" they say a ring doesn't need a jewel. I say\nbut \"there is a jewel missing!\" They say \"we have no reason to think that.\nA ring is a round piece of metal that goes around your finger and looks\npretty. This object is a ring, it has all the attributes of a ring, end of\nstory, no jewel needed.\" \"But there is an empty space...never mind, let me\nlook around\".\n\nSo, I go looking for the missing jewel. I find a few that don't fit. I\nfind one on the floor, under the table. I try putting it in the empty space\nbetween the tines and it seems to fit. Roy and mg say, the jewel is\nworthless or interesting, but adds nothing to the purpose of the ring. \"It\ndoesn't make it rounder, or more metallic or fit your finger better or\nprettier\". I say, \"well I think it might make it prettier, depending on\ntaste and it makes the ring richer and more valuable but...welll....anyway,\nlook, there are tines which hold jewels and the tines are empty and here is\na jewel in the right place, at the right time, with the right shape....\".\nThen I give up and write this post.\n\nIn the meantime I have my original inspriation for joining here, Robert\nBorski, yelling over my shoulder from his book that the four doubled tines\nrepresent the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, which makes it obvious the\nmissing jewel is the Star of Nepal. The filigree on the side of the ring\nlooks North African and thus represents the theft of the Star of Nepal by\nthe Bey of Tunis. Using cryptonymic analysis we reverse Bey to achieve the\nword YEB, and we know that in Semitic languages a J has a Y sound so the\nring means the next president of the USA will be you know who.\n\nA day in the life of Bsharp. How I suffer in the middle LOL! In\nseriousness I appreciate all the input, guidance and collaboration I've\nfound in this community so far. It has been just great.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060529010546.423C433C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T01:05:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nI don't think that's the real dichotomy. Better: \"Here's a nice \nshiny jewel - let's shove it in the ring!\" vs \"But it doesn't fit, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and if you scratch it, it flakes. Let's find a real gem that \nfits.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that certainly sounds more aggressive than I intended. I \nreally meant that everybody finds themselves on different sides of \nthat division from time to time. What looks like ill-fitting tawdry \ncostume paste to some may look like the Wossisname diamond to \nothers, or even to the same person at a different time. Etc etc \netc. \n\nI don't think anybody really denies the existence of empty jewel \nsettings which we're supposed to fill in for ourselves." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T04:59:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "<20060529010546.423C433C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mournings glory writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've recently been accused off-list of being a bully in here, and hope this \ndoesn't further damage my credibility or rep; nevertheless, if you're only \ninterested in applause or >self-gratification, maybe you shouldn't \nmasturbate in public. Now please, sir, let's see what you >come up with \nnext!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm not happy to see that my 20 year quest for solutions to the \nmysteries in BotNS has been reduced to applause seeking, self-gratification \nand masturbating in public. I guess that could be called bullying language, \nI don't know. You called me sir, was that an attempt to be courteous?\n\nmg also writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I've never endorsed the mirror theory. In my opinion the slug is \nable to enter the House >Absolute the same way the white wolves are, via \nany number of hidden or forgotten entrances." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Hethor doesn't use shapeshifting or mirrors. Interesting theory. So the \nslug has nothing to do with Hethor, it is just a wild creature that drops in \nwhen it wants to? This really ignores large chunks of text.\n\nmg says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I pointed out the likely shapeshifting ability of Venant unless he \nnaturally looks like the very human, if false, Epitome of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tried to nicely correct these two textual mistakes you made and I think \nRoy did too, on one of them. But you repeat them. Either you ignored our \nposts or didn't read them. You don't seem too interested in reading the \nBotNS text either. If you are going to be blundering, insulting, \nself-righteous and make up your own text then I'm not sure what benefit I \ncan get from discourse with you.\n\nChris writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What you are primarily missing here, I think, is a reference to the \nTemplars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not much to go on Chris. Any further info you can provide?\n\nThalassocrat says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that's the real dichotomy. Better: \"Here's a nice shiny jewel \n- let's shove it in the ring!\" vs \"But it doesn't fit, and if you scratch \nit, it flakes. Let's find a real gem that fits.\"\nWell, that certainly sounds more aggressive than I intended. I really meant \nthat everybody finds themselves on different sides of that division from \ntime to time. What looks like ill-fitting tawdry costume paste to some may \nlook like the Wossisname diamond to others, or even to the same person at a \ndifferent time. Etc etc etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I appreciate the politeness of your re-statement but I think your original \nwords more accurately reflect your feelings. Though I am new to this \nmessage board I am not new to BotNS. Being less familiar with later works I \ndo not mention them much. I sometimes submit off-the-cuff posts and I try \nto identify them as such. My serious posts are have been carefully thought \nout and researched for positive and negative evidence in the text. To avoid \nclutter I eschew citing chapter and page but if needed I could start.\n\nAs noted in my ring analogy, I do not start exploring a puzzle by looking on \nthe floor for pretty pieces then try to make them fit somewhere. I start by \nlooking at the picture as a whole and notice gaps. Then I look for pieces \nwhich fit.\n\nI do welcome criticism. If you feel a gap doesn't exist, I am interested in \nwhy. If you feel there is a gap but my proposed piece doesn't fit I am \ninterested in that also. I strongly prefer criticism which finds \ncontradiction directly from the text. If a person just needs to vent their \nemotions regarding one of my posts, to say it doesn't \"feel right to me\", \nthat's okay too, though not as useful.\n\nI am not very open to criticism which use vague, unsupported arguments such \nas \"that doesn't help the plot\" or \"there is no need for that\". These sorts \nof statements imply the speaker fully and entirely apprehends the intentions \nand devices of the author. That the mind of Gene Wolfe, the subtext, plot \nand themes of BotNS are in such full understanding that the power of \nauthoritative judgement has been conferred. If there is someone here who \ndoes have a full grasp of the BotNS please let him be identified. From all \nI've seen in my various searches of the past 20 years, there is no one on \nearth, save perhaps one, who comes close to that power of judgement.\n\nI will again state my quest: I hope to understand as much as possible about \nthe work of art called The Book of The New Sun and its companion Urth of the \nNew Sun and the intentions of the brilliant mind that created it. I welcome \nfriendly, intelligent discourse and would rather avoid unpleasantness, \nignorance and competiton but my goal is as stated. By documenting my \nprogress I hope to enlist the help of people with the same goal and perhaps \nto help them as well.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605282213m3b6da6e7w2cf58b89f8dfa073@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T05:13:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/28/06, b sharp wrote:\nIn regards to 5th Head, I do have a sense of the time frame and when I say I\nthink they belong in the same universe I don't mean the immediate story\nblends right into BotNS. But Sainte Anne and Sainte Croix don't just\ndisappear when the 5th Head story ends. They have a future and I see the\nestablished principles there appear in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Be,\n\nHow do you feel about extratextual statements by the writer?\nI ask because some people feel that the author of a work has no\nspecial authority over the work or its interpretation once it has been\npublished (which makes me wonder how they deal with revised\nversions and suchlike but anyway). I tend to take a more moderate\nstance myself.\n\nAt any rate Wolfe has made some surprisingly unequivocal\nstatements that 5HC does -not- take place in the past of the Solar\nbooks. I think that it's beyond clear that they are conceptually\nlinked, but with such statements on the record, only extremely\ncogent, exigent, and -clear- evidence would convince me to accept\nan interpretive framework which involved assuming that 5HC\ndid, in fact, take place in the past of the New Sun.\n\n(Perhaps more problematic: Wolfe seems to have it clearly fixed in\nhis mind that the Solar books take place in a previous \"cycle\" of the\nuniverse, and not in our \"future\" at all. If that's the case, then it might\nbe argued that the Solar books are in 5HC's _past_, assuming of\ncourse that 5HC is in our possible future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So..take a look at this picture:\n\nhttp://www.valerio.net/pictures/image_2_996.jpg\n\nWhat are your first thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"What is it made of? Is it an ancient piece where the jewel has\nbeen lost, or a modern piece from one of those stores where\nyou select the jewel and the ring and they assemble it for you?\"\n\nI also find myself wondering whether those are gem chips of\nsome sort in the filigree work.\n\nIt would not occur to me to say \"Okay, a ring,\" because that\nflashes past too fast for me to notice. That it's (a picture of) a\nring registers before I can have any _conscious_ thoughts about\nit at all.\n\nIf I were to follow in your analogy, I guess I'd have to say that I\nagree with you that the lack-of-a-jewel is the most interesting\nfeature of the ring: but I'm more interested in the space where\nthe jewel might go than I am in the (hypothetical) jewel itself.\n\nTo me, it is a space where any number of different jewels might\nbe affixed by any number of different jewelers -- if you want to\nget all technical about it, it represents (to me) a paradigm with\na space held open for a selection from a syntagm of different\nobjects (jewels), but I really don't want to go into all that theoretical\nlanguage right now.\n\nWhat can we tell about the jewel? In some ways, very little --\nthe picture being decolored, we can't tell what color the metal\nor any chips in the filigree might be, so we can't tell what color\nof jewel might fit well into it.\n\nWe can tell a bit more about the shape -- it looks to me like it's\nfitted for a square-cut jewel; a pearl wouldn't work very well, then.\nBut then, looking a little more closely, the corners of the square\nare edged-in a bit, so not quite square, more of a semiregular\noctagon. This together with the filigree work suggests a fairly\nfancy cut.\n\nAnd, though we don't know what size this ring is, we can make\na general estimate of the size of the gap from the normal range\nof human fingers: the jewel would be, at the absolute outside, a\ncentimetre across. If someone were to tell me that this were\nactually a ring made for an Angrborn, of course, I would have to\nrevise that estimate upwards.\n\nSo that gives me a range of possible jewels ... or, to return from\nthe ring to its analogic sense, a range of possible interpretations\nof a mysterious feature in a text. Ideally, I like to keep that range\nopen, rather than choosing a single \"right\" interpretation. What I'll\ndo is build mental models of the text that allow for rich and\ninteresting interpretationS, and while I'll often argue for the\ninterpretation that fascinates me most, it doesn't mean that I think\nthat others are necessarily \"wrong.\"\n\nGaps -- elisions -- are fascinating things...\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tristan Davenport", "address": "tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T08:22:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605282213m3b6da6e7w2cf58b89f8dfa073@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\n(Perhaps more problematic: Wolfe seems to have it clearly fixed in\nhis mind that the Solar books take place in a previous \"cycle\" of the\nuniverse, and not in our \"future\" at all. If that's the case, then it might\nbe argued that the Solar books are in 5HC's _past_, assuming of\ncourse that 5HC is in our possible future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I'm curious about this business of cycles. How closely does Wolfe's \nuniverse repeat itself cycle after cycle? I'm asking because this puts me \nin mind of one of Silk's enlightenments in BotLS. He's given a vision of \nJesus very close to what's described in the Bible -- riding in on the ass, \npeople waving green branches, etc. This suggests to me that the Sun series \ntakes place in *our* future. An equally compelling bit of evidence occurs \nwhen Silk is talking to someone (Horn?) about life in other cities in the \nwhorl. He mentions that foreigners often speak other languages, including \n(and he names it specifically) French. In BotNS, an ancient language is \nrepresented by Latin, but it's never called \"Latin\" in the text. Is this \nmentioning of French a goof-up on Wolfe's part, or a clear reference to our \nown epoch? Excuse the lack of page/volume references.\n\nOne more question: Does the wedding ring given by Silk to Hyacinth (in \nExodus, I think) depict the face of an avern?\n\n Tristan\n tristan_davenport at hotmail.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060529133605.4DB9CDA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T13:36:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 29 May 2006 18:22:43 +1000 Tristan Davenport \n wrote:\nNow I'm curious about this business of cycles. How closely does \nWolfe's \nuniverse repeat itself cycle after cycle? I'm asking because this " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "puts me \nin mind of one of Silk's enlightenments in BotLS. He's given a \nvision of \nJesus very close to what's described in the Bible -- riding in on \nthe ass, \npeople waving green branches, etc. This suggests to me that the \nSun series \ntakes place in *our* future. An equally compelling bit of \nevidence occurs \nwhen Silk is talking to someone (Horn?) about life in other cities " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the \nwhorl. He mentions that foreigners often speak other languages, \nincluding \n(and he names it specifically) French. In BotNS, an ancient \nlanguage is \nrepresented by Latin, but it's never called \"Latin\" in the text. \nIs this \nmentioning of French a goof-up on Wolfe's part, or a clear \nreference to our \nown epoch? Excuse the lack of page/volume references.\n\nOne more question: Does the wedding ring given by Silk to Hyacinth " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(in \nExodus, I think) depict the face of an avern?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm, what's the basis for that?\n\nLet me throw in another one: are the juvenile form of the \nHierogrammates in any way related to the huge moth SilkHorn sees on \none of his astral journeys to Green? The one with wings marked with \na cross and a circle? I doubt it, but I think you could spin a fun \ntheory from it.\n\nThinking of Alpheta and her kin wafts me towards cosmological \nthoughts which touch on your point. I really don't believe Wolfe \nexpects us to be very happy about the BOTNS universe. Angelic \nbeings whose idea of justice is slow genocide in retribution for \nthe sins of distant ancestors? Redemption via accelerated genocide? \nMutant bureaucratic moth-creatures supevising the affairs of the \nworlds? \n\nNah. It's all wrong. The BOTNS powers & dominions are separated \nfrom the Increate, like Gabriel in Melito's story: \"The Pancreator \nis infinitely far from me.\" In LS/SS, the Outsider comes inside, \nand, IMO, things are fundamentally, cosmologically diffrent. \n\nI don't know whether it's just a change in Wolfe's storytelling \ncontext, or whether there's actually supposed to be some kind of \nprogression leading from one to the other. \n\nBut if it's the first, linking the two series looks unnecessary and \nawkward (if not downright inept). I prefer to believe the second, \nthat the Outsider coming inside has changed things fundamentally, \nall through history, and through the cycles of history. Jesus in \nthe deep past; Silk's enlightenment, and all the flows from it, in \nthe present. \n\nWhich is a long & tendentious way of saying, yup, I agree: the \nSS/LS universe is ours, and the BOTS universe isn't." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001101c68353$56988c40$e23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-29T19:08:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "<20060529133605.4DB9CDA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nThinking of Alpheta and her kin wafts me towards cosmological\nthoughts which touch on your point. I really don't believe Wolfe\nexpects us to be very happy about the BOTNS universe. Angelic\nbeings whose idea of justice is slow genocide in retribution for\nthe sins of distant ancestors? Redemption via accelerated genocide?\nMutant bureaucratic moth-creatures supevising the affairs of the\nworlds?\n\nNah. It's all wrong. The BOTNS powers & dominions are separated\nfrom the Increate, like Gabriel in Melito's story: \"The Pancreator\nis infinitely far from me.\" In LS/SS, the Outsider comes inside,\nand, IMO, things are fundamentally, cosmologically diffrent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The many references made to the Increate in the Urth Cycle leave little room\nto doubt that Increate means God, as, for example, Dan'l uses the word God.\nSeverian, at least, believed that he was doing God's will when he destroyed\nUrth. \"It came to me that when the Increate had chosen me his instrument to\ndestroy the land, only babes and beasts had died in innocence.\" (URTH, 333)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060529200141.74CDEDA826@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T20:01:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "<001101c68353$56988c40$e23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 30 May 2006 05:08:52 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nThe many references made to the Increate in the Urth Cycle leave \nlittle room\nto doubt that Increate means God, as, for example, Dan'l uses the \nword God.\nSeverian, at least, believed that he was doing God's will when he \ndestroyed\nUrth. \"It came to me that when the Increate had chosen me his \ninstrument to\ndestroy the land, only babes and beasts had died in innocence.\" \n(URTH, 333)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, the Increate is God, and Sev & others believe they are doing \nGod's will. But nobody seems to have a direct line to him; they're \nguessing.\n\nI do think Sev's prayer in the chapel of the Pelerines is very \ninstructive (Ch 14 of Citadel). \n\n\"I remained conscious of my kneeling body, but only as a peripheral \nburden. My mind was among the starry wastes, far from Urth and \nindeed far from Urth's archipeligo of island worlds, and it seemed \nto me that that to which I spoke was farther still - I had come, as \nit were, to the walls of the universe, and now shouted through the \nwalls to one who waited outside.\"\n\nAt this point, I think you'd normally expect any answer to the \nprayer to come from the Increate, who is surely the same as the \nlater \"Outsider\". But no; Sev finds only himself.\n\n\"... I seemed to see ... through the chink in the universe to a new \nuniverse ... where my listener knelt to hear me. What had seemed a \ncrevice in the world had expanded until I could see a face and \nfolded hands, and the opening, like a tunnel, running deep into a \nhuman head ... I was whispering into my own ear ...\"\n\nOf course, it's as the New Sun that Sev finds himself. But even as \nthe New Sun, the Conciliator, the holest thing around, I don't \nrecall the smallest hint that Sev experiences any form of communion \nwith the Increate. \n\nIn the New Sun universe, the Outsider isn't taking any calls." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060531050306.43453.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-31T05:03:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shapeshifting Evidence and Principles", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370605282213m3b6da6e7w2cf58b89f8dfa073@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSo that gives me a range of possible jewels ... or,\nto return from\nthe ring to its analogic sense, a range of possible\ninterpretations\nof a mysterious feature in a text. Ideally, I like\nto keep that range\nopen, rather than choosing a single \"right\"\ninterpretation. What I'll\ndo is build mental models of the text that allow for\nrich and\ninteresting interpretationS, and while I'll often\nargue for the\ninterpretation that fascinates me most, it doesn't\nmean that I think\nthat others are necessarily \"wrong.\"\n\nGaps -- elisions -- are fascinating things..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amen to that. They're the reason most great religious\ntexts survive and carry relevance, as well as great\nliterature imo.\nThis list would have degenerated into nitpicks years\nago if not for the deliberate (and absolutely pitch\nperfect) vagueness of Wolfe's narrative.\n\nDon" } ] } ] }