{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4630", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4630, "subject": "shapeshifting Hethor", "messages": 12, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-05-28T06:14:01+00:00", "last": "2006-05-31T02:25:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T06:14:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a BotNS problem posed by Severian: How could Hethor get a slug the \nsize of a horse to follow Severian through pampas, towns, mountains and \njungles?\n\nRobert Borski proposes the slug is really Mother Pyrexia who, perhaps 30 \nyears ago, was sealed in a house and when they opened it she had became \n\"something strange\" like what you'd find in a piece of rotten wood. It is a \npretty good theory but I feel it falls short in the absence of multiple \nMother Pyrexia sightings. When we first meet Hethor he has four companions, \nincluding a gray haired woman. But later he travels only with one of them, \nthe small man, Beuzec.\n\nI think the Pyrexia story does serve an important purpose. It provides some \nof the evidence Roy is looking for (certainly debatable evidence) that \nshapeshifters exist on Urth. And it provides a necessary addition to one of \nthe shapeshifter rules we have learned from Foila's story. I think we learn \nthat confinement doesn't just prevent a shapeshifter from changing, but also \nforces the shapeshifter to take their original form. The rule that a \nshapeshifter will always show a part of its true nature is also in effect.\n\nArmed with these tools I think we could suggest that the slug is Hethor, or \nmore accurately, Hethor is really a slug. Just as the brown larkish \nArmiger's daughter is always brown, brown, brown, Hethor is always gray in \nclothing with gray hair. He is always presented as disgusting. Wolfe takes \npains to make Hethor take off his greasy hat toward the end of Shadow. This \nshows his receding hair has left a gray wavering crest which sounds rather \nslug-like in apperance to me.\n\nRobert Borski is at a loss to explain how Mother Pyrexia might get into the \nantechamber but shapeshifter rules offer a clear solution. Once confined, \nHethor is forced into his natural form. This idea might suggest a similar \nreversion to original form occurs when Hethor follows Severian into the \ntunnels beneath the Jungle Sorcerers village.\n\nAnd I almost cringe to mention that it also offers a solution to the problem \nof the incident in the tunnel beneath the Piteous Gate.\n\np.s. I think Hethor's mirrors are adequate to explain the notules, the \nglowing worms and perhaps the salamander. The pteriopes are still an issue \nI'm working on.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T17:05:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"b sharp\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a BotNS problem posed by Severian: How could Hethor get a slug \nthe\nsize of a horse to follow Severian through pampas, towns, mountains and\njungles?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Armed with these tools I think we could suggest that the slug is Hethor, or\nmore accurately, Hethor is really a slug." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that the slug almost certainly perishes in the burning hut of the \nvillage of the sorcerors during the duel of magic, whereas Hethor is still \nalive when reencountered in _Citadel_. I suppose you could argue the slug \nescapes by either natural or artificial means (specular teleportation?), but \nit certainly never appears again -- ditto for the salamander, which has \nplunged to its death back to Thrax.\n\nMore likely both disappearances result because neither beast is Hethor, just \nas Father Inire is neither grieving boatman nor curator of paintings, but an \nalien with absolutely no reason to impersonate either Rudesind or 'Cas's \nhusband.\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T20:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mourning glory writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that the slug almost certainly perishes in the burning hut of the \nvillage of the sorcerors during the duel of magic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know the notules got sealed in a bottle. We know the salamander crashed \ndown a cliff. The text says nothing about the fate of the slug. Does your \nassumption rest on the fact that the other monsters seem vanquished? Or \nbecause Mother Pyrexia didn't like fire? Or just because there was a fire \nand it seems like a good way for a slug to die?\n\nalso:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More likely both disappearances result because neither beast is Hethor" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mg you don't say what you base your likelihood and almost certainties on, \nthough I think my post on building a mental mosaic applies. Shapeshifting \ndoes not fit the picture you have built of Urth and so you discard it \nwhenever you see it. That's fine. For you. I used to accept the mirrors \nonly view. Now I don't and that led me to add a shapeshifter view. I used \nto think the entire citadel was a spaceship. Now I don't and that led me to \nnew insight about the Atrium of Time.\n\nFor me, your theory (which simply involves mirrors?) ignores important \nquestions. Such as how a giant slug gets out of and into small bits of \nsailcloth. And why Wolfe dedicated large portions of BotNS to stories and \nlegends.\n\nFor some readers, BotNS is a story about a cool guy in a black cape with an \nawesome sword. Foila's story is just a tv commercial to kill time until we \nget back to the real plot. For others, every word, tree branch and drop of \nriver water contain hidden meanings and connections to other parts of the \nstory. I think we can all agree that part of Wolfe's genius is that he can \nappeal to both sorts of readers and everything in between.\n\nI am not satisfied with my current mental picture of Urth and I am on a \nquest to fill in a lot of missing pieces. I am documenting that journey. \nI think my posts are best suited for those like me, still questing. If you \nalready have a complete picture of Urth and how its pieces fit together then \nmy posts may not be of much interest. I still have missing pices but I'm \ncatching up.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T21:25:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"b sharp\" \n\nmourning glory writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that the slug almost certainly perishes in the burning hut of the\nvillage of the sorcerors during the duel of magic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know the notules got sealed in a bottle. We know the salamander crashed\ndown a cliff. The text says nothing about the fate of the slug. Does your\nassumption rest on the fact that the other monsters seem vanquished?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it rests on the assumption that the slug's never, ever seen again -- not \nonce -- the same as the salamander. Ergo, the most reasonable assumption is \nthat it's dead, killed in the fire -- like that parrot in the Monty Python \nsketch, it's bleeding demised." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mg you don't say what you base your likelihood and almost certainties on,\nthough I think my post on building a mental mosaic applies. Shapeshifting\ndoes not fit the picture you have built of Urth and so you discard it\nwhenever you see it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely not true. I pointed out the likely shapeshifting ability of \nVenant and could make an interesting case for the voiceshifting alzabo; I've \nno trouble with the notion of Hethor being a shapeshifter nor for Mother \nPyrexia being the degenerate terminus of one such witcherly attempt; and in \nmany respects Baldanders, some of the Megatherians, and the undines are \nbeings that have chosen to change their shapes. This does not, however, mean \nthat Father Inire periodically morphs himself into the two individuals you \nclaim just because other individuals are able to shift their appearance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, your theory (which simply involves mirrors?) ignores important\nquestions. Such as how a giant slug gets out of and into small bits of\nsailcloth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I've never endorsed the mirror theory. In my opinion the slug is \nable to enter the House Absolute the same way the white wolves are, via any \nnumber of hidden or forgotten entrances; if you'll notice when Severian \ndiscusses these, it's in the same chapter that he remarks about how he's \nnever re-encountered the mysterious Beuzec -- Hethor's other companion -- \nand thereby reasons he's left by these same portals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not satisfied with my current mental picture of Urth and I am on a\nquest to fill in a lot of missing pieces. I am documenting that journey.\nI think my posts are best suited for those like me, still questing. If you\nalready have a complete picture of Urth and how its pieces fit together \nthen\nmy posts may not be of much interest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but you're also posting them in an on-line forum devoted to discussing \nthe works of Gene Wolfe. I've recently been accused off-list of being a \nbully in here, and hope this doesn't further damage my credibility or rep; \nnevertheless, if you're only interested in applause or self-gratification, \nmaybe you shouldn't masturbate in public.\n\nNow please, sir, let's see what you come up with next!\n\nem" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-28T21:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "MSG said:\nbsharp said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mg you don't say what you base your likelihood and almost certainties on,\nthough I think my post on building a mental mosaic applies. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shapeshifting\ndoes not fit the picture you have built of Urth and so you discard it\nwhenever you see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely not true. I pointed out the likely shapeshifting ability of\nVenant and could make an interesting case for the voiceshifting alzabo; \nI've\nno trouble with the notion of Hethor being a shapeshifter nor for Mother\nPyrexia being the degenerate terminus of one such witcherly attempt; and in\nmany respects Baldanders, some of the Megatherians, and the undines are\nbeings that have chosen to change their shapes. This does not, however, \nmean\nthat Father Inire periodically morphs himself into the two individuals you\nclaim just because other individuals are able to shift their appearance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, and I think it may again be time to point out that interpretation of \nWolfe tends to get into an occasional lunatic (in the memorable sense \npresented in Foucoult's Pendulum) circle. That is, we tend to latch on to \none thing and then attempt to explain *everything* in terms of it, finding \nconnections everywhere we go - because it is easy to find connections of \nsome sort or another.\n\nThis came up in the infamous clone wars on this list, that were alluded to \nrecently, where (to exaggerate a bit) we started to reach a point where \neveryone in the Urth cycle was a clone of Typhon (though I am not sure \nwhether we established whether, through some elaborate time-travelling \ntrick, Typhon was a clone of Typhon as well).\n\nBorski's book, I think, is quite prone to this sort of thing. Given the \nfrequent mentions we've been seeing of that book, it might be good to keep \nthis in mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003e01c682d3$a3229220$e13ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-29T03:54:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "msg wrote:\nAbsolutely not true. I pointed out the likely shapeshifting ability of\nVenant" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bsharp is right about that; it was Zak who was the false Epitome. (URTH,\n123)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but you're also posting them in an on-line forum devoted to discussing\nthe works of Gene Wolfe. I've recently been accused off-list of being a\nbully in here, and hope this doesn't further damage my credibility or rep;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're a bully, huh? I wonder what that makes me. Well, I've been in\nworse company. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004901c682d4$1122aa80$e13ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-29T03:57:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<003e01c682d3$a3229220$e13ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bsharp wrote:\nAnd it provides a necessary addition to one of\nthe shapeshifter rules we have learned from Foila's story. I think we\nlearn that confinement doesn't just prevent a shapeshifter from changing,\nbut also forces the shapeshifter to take their original form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Armed with these tools I think we could suggest that the slug is Hethor, or\nmore accurately, Hethor is really a slug." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski is at a loss to explain how Mother Pyrexia might get into the\nantechamber but shapeshifter rules offer a clear solution. Once confined,\nHethor is forced into his natural form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, which is it? It can't be both ways. If confinement forces a\nshapeshifter into true form, why didn't Hethor immediately turn back into a\nslug (or whatever) when he was thrown into the antechamber? It didn't\nhappen. He was put into the antechamber at breakfast time and was there all\nday. It was at night when the creature came snuffling in the dark and\nSeverian escaped with a slime-covered Jonas. If Hethor had the leisure to\nwait until dark in order to follow one rule before violating the other rule\nagainst shapeshifting while imprisoned, who's enforcing these rules?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I almost cringe to mention that it also offers a solution to the\nproblem of the incident in the tunnel beneath the Piteous Gate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would violate another of your rules; the place was packed with prying\neyes and it wasn't too dark to see him shift.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T05:13:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<004901c682d4$1122aa80$e13ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, which is it? It can't be both ways. If confinement forces a\nshapeshifter into true form, why didn't Hethor immediately turn back into a\nslug (or whatever) when he was thrown into the antechamber? It didn't\nhappen. He was put into the antechamber at breakfast time and was there all\nday. It was at night when the creature came snuffling in the dark and\nSeverian escaped with a slime-covered Jonas. If Hethor had the leisure to\nwait until dark in order to follow one rule before violating the other rule\nagainst shapeshifting while imprisoned, who's enforcing these rules?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I almost cringe to mention that it also offers a solution to the\nproblem of the incident in the tunnel beneath the Piteous Gate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would violate another of your rules; the place was packed with prying\neyes and it wasn't too dark to see him shift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent points Roy. I agree completely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370605282217i241b1f61t4554c2674c5e638@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T05:17:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/28/06, mournings glory wrote:\nI've recently been accused off-list of being a\nbully in here, and hope this doesn't further damage my credibility or rep;\nnevertheless, if you're only interested in applause or self-gratification,\nmaybe you shouldn't masturbate in public." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm.\n\nWhile I'm not interested in accusing you (or anyone else) of being a\nbully, I do feel that this is just a wee bit OTT.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060529192621.84540.qmail@web51115.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Macronaut", "address": "macronaut at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-29T19:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Salamander Again (Long)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember when Robert Borski first proposed that the salamander was Mother Pyrexia. I found it unconvincing then and still do.\n\nThe alcalde of Saltus described Mother Pyrexia as something that could be handled by a group of men armed with torches and maybe simple weapons (hence similar preparations for the breaking of Barnoch's house). Claw p. 223. We know from his description that the Pyrerxia-thing disliked fire and light.\n\nBy contrast, the salamander in Thrax is completely unafraid of men, even soldiers armed with pyrotechnic lances, and must be untroubled by fire because its body is contstantly setting fires in Thrax while it hunts Sev, without apparent negative reaction from the creature. Most subtle but most convincing to me, Wolfe portrays the salamander as a completely otherwordly being that seems to perceive the world with an alien set of senses that are ill-adapted for operating in an Urth environment, eg. bad vision, but good at sensing things like the Claw. As I see it, that's too alien to be something adapted for life on Urth, and the Claw-sensing ability is too convenient a power for a random creature that just happens to have evolved in Saltus in time for Sev to show up -- it sounds much more like an alien brought to Urth for the specific purpose of hunting Sev.\n\nFurthermore, there's the fact that the alcalde and his men seem to have put an end to Pyrexia 18 years ago -- surely if they hadn't the alcalde would have mentioned that she's still out there somewhere -- a nice, chilling touch from someone who clearly likes to tell stories. Then there's the fact that, if the salamander is the same Mother Pyrexia we're talking about, she's been hanging about Saltus and/or Thrax for the last 18 years without being noticed or dealt with -- again, all highly improbable.\n\nOTOH, I think the Pyrexia story has some intriguing connections to the salamander. The most interesting comes from the earthly legend of the salamander. That legend is based on the real earthly amphibean (often red in color), which was thought (incorrectly) to love fire because people often observed them scurrying out of fires. The real reason they did so is that salamanders like wet damp places like rotting logs, and people like to burn logs, and when you do any salamanders inside will run out to escape the heat.\n\nWith this in mind, look at the alacalde's description of the Mother Pyrexia-thing: \"I'll say this -- a woman sealed in the dark long enough can become something very strange, just like the strange things you find in rotten wood, back among the trees.\" Claw p. 223. This seems to tie her to the salamander. It can cut both for and against the transformation theory: it may be only to suggest, like the difference btw the earthly salamander and the mythological one, that she isn't the alien salamander Sev encounters in Lictor.\n\nBut then there's the name folks gave her: Mother Pyrexia. The medical definition for Pyrexia is an increased body temperature as the result of infection or other pathology -- including microganisms (I've also seen it defined as fever of unknown origin). That can be read to support a theory that she transformed into a creature associated with heat, and thus Borski's theory that she became the salamander.\n\nBut ultimately, I think the two beings are so different that we have to look for a different explanation. So I speculate that she was (1) some type of alien masquerading as a human, whose confinement without food in the dark somehow broke down her disguise; or (2) a human transformed by the same type of mysterious process that Jonas cites as explanation for the mine-apes' descent from men (Claw p. 260). Another question: what did that sweet old lady do 18 years ago that was so bad she got the brick house treatment?\n\nI may have mentioned some of this back in the days when I was responding to Borski, so if I'm repeating I apologize.\n\nMacronaut\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-30T07:45:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Salamander Again (Long)", "in_reply_to": "<20060529192621.84540.qmail@web51115.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again Macronaut, I appreciate this post.\n\nRobert Borski did propose that Mother Pyrexia was a slug. And that Beuzec \nwas the Salamander. I think he uses the Pyrexia name to suggest the slug is \nafraid of fire and I think mournings glory picks up on that in his almost \ncertainty that the Slug died in the fire in the Village testing room.\n\nTying \"Pyrexia\" to a slug didn't make much sense to me either when there is \na salamander around. To me the weakness of that theory is that the \nSalamander is practically invulnerable in Thrax, facing Severian with a \nsword and all the archon's horses and men firing energy weapons. The \nalcalde of Saltus and his men are only armed with stuff like torches, staves \nand piletes (okay I don't know what that is and internet isn't helping. Def. \nof pilete anyone?). But maybe Salamander Pyrexia was too weak to scorch the \nSaltusians after being sealed in a house for a while.\n\nReminds me, I forgot to make this point to mournings glory in \"shapeshifting \nHethor\". You find great importance in the disapperance of the slug after \nthe village scene. But all of Hethor's creatures make one appearance and \nthen disappear, except one. Both Severian and I demand that be explained. \nWhy is the slug such a Hethor favorite it had to be used two or three times? \nMaybe four.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060531022508.13005.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-05-31T02:25:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) shapeshifting Hethor", "in_reply_to": "<003e01c682d3$a3229220$e13ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nmsg wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I've recently been accused" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "off-list of being a\nbully in here, and hope this doesn't further damage\nmy credibility or rep;\n\nSo you're a bully, huh? I wonder what that makes me.\nWell, I've been in\nworse company. \n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A bully's a person who picks on someone who can't\nfight back. I don't think that's a problem here.\nbsharp seems able to give as good as he gets. Besides,\nit adds character to the list when you guys get\ngrouchy.\n\nDon (who carries a pointy stick)" } ] } ] }