Subject: (urth) shapeshifting Hethor

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 06:14:01 +0000

There is a BotNS problem posed by Severian:  How could Hethor get a slug the 
size of a horse to follow Severian through pampas, towns, mountains and 
jungles?

Robert Borski proposes the slug is really Mother Pyrexia who, perhaps 30 
years ago, was sealed in a house and when they opened it she had became 
"something strange" like what you'd find in a piece of rotten wood.  It is a 
pretty good theory but I feel it falls short in the absence of multiple 
Mother Pyrexia sightings. When we first meet Hethor he has four companions, 
including a gray haired woman. But later he travels only with one of them, 
the small man, Beuzec.

I think the Pyrexia story does serve an important purpose. It provides some 
of the evidence Roy is looking for (certainly debatable evidence) that 
shapeshifters exist on Urth.  And it provides a necessary addition to one of 
the shapeshifter rules we have learned from Foila's story.  I think we learn 
that confinement doesn't just prevent a shapeshifter from changing, but also 
forces the shapeshifter to take their original form.  The rule that a 
shapeshifter will always show a part of its true nature is also in effect.

Armed with these tools I think we could suggest that the slug is Hethor, or 
more accurately, Hethor is really a slug. Just as the brown larkish 
Armiger's daughter is always brown, brown, brown, Hethor is always gray in 
clothing with gray hair.  He is always presented as disgusting.  Wolfe takes 
pains to make Hethor take off his greasy hat toward the end of Shadow.  This 
shows his receding  hair has left a gray wavering crest which sounds rather 
slug-like in apperance to me.

Robert Borski is at a loss to explain how Mother Pyrexia might get into the 
antechamber but shapeshifter rules offer a clear solution.  Once confined, 
Hethor is forced into his natural form.  This idea might suggest a similar 
reversion to original form occurs when Hethor follows Severian into the 
tunnels beneath the Jungle Sorcerers village.

And I almost cringe to mention that it also offers a solution to the problem 
of the incident in the tunnel beneath the Piteous Gate.

p.s. I think Hethor's mirrors are adequate to explain the notules, the 
glowing worms and perhaps the salamander.  The pteriopes are still an issue 
I'm working on.

-bsharp

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From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 17:05:19 +0000

>more accurately, Hethor is really a slug.

Except that the slug almost certainly perishes in the burning hut of the 
village of the sorcerors during the duel of magic, whereas Hethor is still 
alive when reencountered in _Citadel_.  I suppose you could argue the slug 
escapes by either natural or artificial means (specular teleportation?), but 
it certainly never appears again -- ditto for the salamander, which has 
plunged to its death back to Thrax.

More likely both disappearances result because neither beast is Hethor, just 
as Father Inire is neither grieving boatman nor curator of paintings, but an 
alien with absolutely no reason to impersonate either Rudesind or 'Cas's 
husband.

em

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 20:02:07 +0000

mourning glory writes:

>village of the sorcerors during the duel of magic.

We know the notules got sealed in a bottle. We know the salamander crashed 
down a cliff. The text says nothing about the fate of the slug. Does your 
assumption rest on the fact that the other monsters seem vanquished? Or 
because Mother Pyrexia didn't like fire?  Or just because there was a fire 
and it seems like a good way for a slug to die?

also:
>More likely both disappearances result because neither beast is Hethor

Mg you don't say what you base your likelihood and almost certainties on, 
though I think my post on building a mental mosaic applies.  Shapeshifting 
does not fit the picture you have built of Urth and so you discard it 
whenever you see it.  That's fine.  For you.  I used to accept the mirrors 
only view. Now I don't and that led me to add a shapeshifter view.  I used 
to think the entire citadel was a spaceship.  Now I don't and that led me to 
new insight about the Atrium of Time.

For me, your theory (which simply involves mirrors?) ignores important 
questions.   Such as how  a giant slug gets out of and into small bits of 
sailcloth.  And why Wolfe dedicated large portions of BotNS to stories and 
legends.

For some readers, BotNS is a story about a cool guy in a black cape with an 
awesome sword.   Foila's story is just a tv commercial to kill time until we 
get back to the real plot.   For others, every word, tree branch and drop of 
river water contain hidden meanings and connections to other parts of the 
story.  I think we can all agree that part of Wolfe's genius is that he can 
appeal to both sorts of readers and everything in between.

I am not satisfied with my current mental picture of Urth and I am on a 
quest to fill in a lot of missing pieces.  I am documenting that journey.   
I think my posts are best suited for those like me, still questing. If you 
already have a complete picture of Urth and how its pieces fit together then 
my posts may not be of much interest.  I still have missing pices but I'm 
catching up.

-bsharp

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From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:25:10 +0000

>assumption rest on the fact that the other monsters seem vanquished?

No, it rests on the assumption that the slug's never, ever seen again -- not 
once -- the same as the salamander. Ergo, the most reasonable assumption is 
that it's dead, killed in the fire -- like that parrot in the Monty Python 
sketch, it's bleeding demised.

>whenever you see it.

Absolutely not true. I pointed out the likely shapeshifting ability of 
Venant and could make an interesting case for the voiceshifting alzabo; I've 
no trouble with the notion of Hethor being a shapeshifter nor for Mother 
Pyrexia being the degenerate terminus of one such witcherly attempt; and in 
many respects Baldanders, some of the Megatherians, and the undines are 
beings that have chosen to change their shapes. This does not, however, mean 
that Father Inire periodically morphs himself into the two individuals you 
claim just because other individuals are able to shift their appearance.

>sailcloth.

Actually, I've never endorsed the mirror theory. In my opinion the slug is 
able to enter the House Absolute the same way the white wolves are, via any 
number of hidden or forgotten entrances; if you'll notice when Severian 
discusses these, it's in the same chapter that he remarks about how he's 
never re-encountered the mysterious Beuzec -- Hethor's other companion -- 
and thereby reasons he's left by these same portals.

>my posts may not be of much interest.

Yes, but you're also posting them in an on-line forum devoted to discussing 
the works of Gene Wolfe. I've recently been accused off-list of being a 
bully in here, and hope this doesn't further damage my credibility or rep; 
nevertheless, if you're only interested in applause or self-gratification, 
maybe you shouldn't masturbate in public.

Now please, sir, let's see what you come up with next!

em

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 21:47:22 +0000

MSG said:

>claim just because other individuals are able to shift their appearance.

Right, and I think it may again be time to point out that interpretation of 
Wolfe tends to get into an occasional lunatic (in the memorable sense 
presented in Foucoult's Pendulum) circle. That is, we tend to latch on to 
one thing and then attempt to explain *everything* in terms of it, finding 
connections everywhere we go - because it is easy to find connections of 
some sort or another.

This came up in the infamous clone wars on this list, that were alluded to 
recently, where (to exaggerate a bit) we started to reach a point where 
everyone in the Urth cycle was a clone of Typhon (though I am not sure 
whether we established whether, through some elaborate time-travelling 
trick, Typhon was a clone of Typhon as well).

Borski's book, I think, is quite prone to this sort of thing. Given the 
frequent mentions we've been seeing of that book, it might be good to keep 
this in mind.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:54:42 +0000

msg wrote:
>Venant

Bsharp is right about that; it was Zak who was the false Epitome. (URTH,
123)

>bully in here, and hope this doesn't further damage my credibility or rep;

So you're a bully, huh? I wonder what that makes me. Well, I've been in
worse company. <G>

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 03:57:48 +0000

Bsharp wrote:
> And it provides a necessary addition to one of
>the shapeshifter rules we have learned from Foila's story.  I think we
>learn that confinement doesn't just prevent a shapeshifter from changing,
>but also forces the shapeshifter to take their original form.
[snip]
>more accurately, Hethor is really a slug.
[snip]
>Hethor is forced into his natural form.

Well, which is it? It can't be both ways. If confinement forces a
shapeshifter into true form, why didn't Hethor immediately turn back into a
slug (or whatever) when he was thrown into the antechamber? It didn't
happen. He was put into the antechamber at breakfast time and was there all
day. It was at night when the creature came snuffling in the dark and
Severian escaped with a slime-covered Jonas. If Hethor had the leisure to
wait until dark in order to follow one rule before violating the other rule
against shapeshifting while imprisoned, who's enforcing these rules?

>And I almost cringe to mention that it also offers a solution to the
>problem of the incident in the tunnel beneath the Piteous Gate.

That would violate another of your rules; the place was packed with prying
eyes and it wasn't too dark to see him shift.

-Roy

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:13:50 +0000

>eyes and it wasn't too dark to see him shift.

Excellent points Roy.  I agree completely.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 05:17:24 +0000

On 5/28/06, mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've recently been accused off-list of being a

Ummm.

While I'm not interested in accusing you (or anyone else) of being a
bully, I do feel that this is just a wee bit OTT.

--Dan'l

-- 
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: Macronaut <macronaut at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 19:26:21 +0000

I remember when Robert Borski first proposed that the salamander was Mother Pyrexia.  I found it unconvincing then and still do.

The alcalde of Saltus described Mother Pyrexia as something that could be handled by a group of men armed with torches and maybe simple weapons (hence similar preparations for the breaking of Barnoch's house).  Claw p. 223.  We know from his description that the Pyrerxia-thing disliked fire and light.

By contrast, the salamander in Thrax is completely unafraid of men, even soldiers armed with pyrotechnic lances, and must be untroubled by fire because its body is contstantly setting fires in Thrax while it hunts Sev, without apparent negative reaction from the creature.  Most subtle but most convincing to me, Wolfe portrays the salamander as a completely otherwordly being that seems to perceive the world with an alien set of senses that are ill-adapted for operating in an Urth environment, eg. bad vision, but good at sensing things like the Claw.  As I see it, that's too alien to be something adapted for life on Urth, and the Claw-sensing ability is too convenient a power for a random creature that just happens to have evolved in Saltus in time for Sev to show up -- it sounds much more like an alien brought to Urth for the specific purpose of hunting Sev.

Furthermore, there's the fact that the alcalde and his men seem to have put an end to Pyrexia 18 years ago -- surely if they hadn't the alcalde would have mentioned that she's still out there somewhere -- a nice, chilling touch from someone who clearly likes to tell stories.  Then there's the fact that, if the salamander is the same Mother Pyrexia we're talking about, she's been hanging about Saltus and/or Thrax for the last 18 years without being noticed or dealt with -- again, all highly improbable.

OTOH, I think the Pyrexia story has some intriguing connections to the salamander.  The most interesting comes from the earthly legend of the salamander.  That legend is based on the real earthly amphibean (often red in color), which was thought (incorrectly) to love fire  because people often observed them scurrying out of fires.  The real reason they did so is that salamanders like wet damp places like rotting logs, and people like to burn logs, and when you do any salamanders inside will run out to escape the heat.

With this in mind, look at the alacalde's description of the Mother Pyrexia-thing: "I'll say this -- a woman sealed in the dark long enough can become something very strange, just like the strange things you find in rotten wood, back among the trees."  Claw p. 223.  This seems to tie her to the salamander. It can cut both for and against the transformation theory: it may be only to suggest, like the difference btw the earthly salamander and the mythological one, that she isn't the alien salamander Sev encounters in Lictor.

But then there's the name folks gave her: Mother Pyrexia.  The medical definition for Pyrexia is an increased body temperature as the result of infection or other pathology -- including microganisms (I've also seen it defined as fever of unknown origin).  That can be read to support a theory that she transformed into a creature associated with heat, and thus Borski's theory that she became the salamander.

But ultimately, I think the two beings are so different that we have to look for a different explanation.  So I speculate that she was (1) some type of alien masquerading as a human, whose confinement without food in the dark somehow broke down her disguise; or (2) a human transformed by the same type of mysterious process that Jonas cites as explanation for the mine-apes' descent from men (Claw p. 260).  Another question: what did that sweet old lady do 18 years ago that was so bad she got the brick house treatment?

I may have mentioned some of this back in the days when I was responding to Borski, so if I'm repeating I apologize.

Macronaut

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From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:45:14 +0000

Again Macronaut, I appreciate this post.

Robert Borski did propose that Mother Pyrexia was a slug.  And that Beuzec 
was the Salamander.  I think he uses the Pyrexia name to suggest the slug is 
afraid of fire and I think mournings glory picks up on that in his almost 
certainty that the Slug died in the fire in the Village testing room.

Tying "Pyrexia" to a slug didn't make much sense to me either when there is 
a salamander around.  To me the weakness of that theory is that the 
Salamander is practically invulnerable in Thrax, facing Severian with a 
sword and all the archon's horses and men firing energy weapons.  The 
alcalde of Saltus and his men are only armed with stuff like torches, staves 
and piletes (okay I don't know what that is and internet isn't helping. Def. 
of pilete anyone?).  But maybe Salamander Pyrexia was too weak to scorch the 
Saltusians after being sealed in a house for a while.

Reminds me, I forgot to make this point to mournings glory in "shapeshifting 
Hethor".  You find great importance in the disapperance of the slug after 
the village scene.  But all of Hethor's creatures make one appearance and 
then disappear, except one.  Both Severian and I demand that be explained.  
Why is the slug such a Hethor favorite it had to be used two or three times? 
Maybe four.

-bsharp

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From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 02:25:08 +0000

> msg wrote:
 I've recently been accused
> off-list of being a

A bully's a person who picks on someone who can't
fight back. I don't think that's a problem here.
bsharp seems able to give as good as he gets. Besides,
it adds character to the list when you guys get
grouchy.

Don (who carries a pointy stick)

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