{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4636", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4636, "subject": "Fechin", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2006-05-30T08:17:37+00:00", "last": "2006-06-05T19:16:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-30T08:17:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fechin", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a previous post I noted some interesting (largely monkey based) \nconnections between Father Inire, Rudesind and Dorcas' husband. I was \nhoping someone would fill in the blank space since I had mentioned him in my \nlist of red headed characters. Roy came through with Fechin.\n\nYou know, for all his babble about Fechin, Rudesind only mentions one \npainting by him; three girls dressing each other with flowers. To find out \nmore about his artwork we have to go to the old person in Casdoe's house. \nIn that person's long story we find that Fechin seems to only have two \nthings he likes to draw: young women (spoiler) and himself. Naturally this \ncalls to mind our old Lewis Carrollian friend Father Inire. But it also \nsuggests someone else.\n\nI think only once in this, or maybe it was some other archive, have I seen a \nsuggestion that Fechin could be based on artist Nicolai Fechin. \nRussian-born he immigrated to the US and settled in the Southwest. In this \nonline gallery (http://www.erbzine.com/mag3/0349.html) we see that two of \nhis favorite subjects are young women and himself. I couldn't find a \nwritten physical description of him, but his Russian heritage would \ncertainly allow for red hair. The self-portrait in the lower right, in \nfront of the brick wall, could be showing red hair. Not only was he an \nartist but also....an architect! I would like to know if the Wolfes ever \nmade a trip to the Fechin House in Taos, New Mexico. I bet it has its \nSecrets (let's hope not an antechamber or white wolves).\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7b4e4d6c0605300459w595c6bd0oaf5698f18209601d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Taumoefolau", "address": "zenbot.urth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-30T11:59:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fechin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi there," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, for all his babble about Fechin, Rudesind only mentions one\npainting by him; three girls dressing each other with flowers. To find out\nmore about his artwork we have to go to the old person in Casdoe's house.\nIn that person's long story we find that Fechin seems to only have two\nthings he likes to draw: young women (spoiler) and himself. Naturally this\ncalls to mind our old Lewis Carrollian friend Father Inire. But it also\nsuggests someone else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm at work and sadly didn't bring my novels with me, but off the top\nof my head, doesn't Rudesind also mention a Fechin painting of himself\nas a younger man (or boy)? I recall him going on for a bit about\ncleaning up an image of himself, and about how he wished somebody\nwould clean him up in the same way.\n\nAlso, in the story the old man tells, Fechin draws two pictures, one\non each side of the piece of paper the old man gave him: one of the\ngirl that he's (presumably) just slept with, and one of the old man.\nWhere is it mentioned in the text that Fechin has painted himself?\n\n(I hope this goes to the right place, I haven't posted on a mailing\nlist in years!)\n\n(and also that I'm not completely wrong, heh!)\n\nCheers,\n\nAndrew Taumoefolau\nzenbot at gmail.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-30T14:17:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fechin", "in_reply_to": "<7b4e4d6c0605300459w595c6bd0oaf5698f18209601d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew T. posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm at work and sadly didn't bring my novels with me, but off the top\nof my head, doesn't Rudesind also mention a Fechin painting of himself\nas a younger man (or boy)? I recall him going on for a bit about\ncleaning up an image of himself, and about how he wished somebody\nwould clean him up in the same way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, in the story the old man tells, Fechin draws two pictures, one\non each side of the piece of paper the old man gave him: one of the\ngirl that he's (presumably) just slept with, and one of the old man.\nWhere is it mentioned in the text that Fechin has painted himself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you Andrew! No, your memory of the story is quite perfect. I hinted \nat the solution to one of your objections in my last post. Actually, I \nthought I had already posted a follow-up which solved the rest of your \nobjections but it appears to have gotten lost in cyberspace. I'll try to \nrecreate my thoughts though I'm at work also and I can't quote text as I'd \nlike (and as I did in the lost post).\n\nI think both your legitimate objections stem from purposeful Gene Wolfe \nmisleadings. First I must explain that I think Rudesind is Fechin. There \nare monkey-like similarities to the apperance of both. We know Fechin has \nred hair but we don't know the color of Rudesind's. The name Rudesind might \nbe a clue.\n\nRudesind describes himself as being a gifted child artist. A \"real\" artist \ncomes to visit him, to see the child's work. The text then implies that the \nvisitor was Fechin and he made a drawing of the child which was sent to the \nHouse Absolute which becomes a Fechin. BUT (given my suspicion) I think it \nwas actually a self-portrait by the child because the child is drawn with a \ntangerine and brushes. Both were promised to the child on completion of the \nportrait. But it is the artist who needs brushes near him, not the subject. \nUnless it is a self-portrait. And the traveller wanted to see examples of \nthe child's work.\n\nMoreover both Rudesind and Fechin are described as child artists who don't \neven have paper to draw on. A set of brushes (and a tangerine) would be a \nfabulous gift from the artist/art collector visiting from the House \nAbsolute.\n\nThe next objection is the old person living in Casdoe's house. There is \nsomething VERY strange about this person. Unreliable Severian refers to \nthis old person as Casdoe's father at one point and Becan's father at \nanother. Casdoe introduces her son to Severian but not the old person. \nCasdoe says only one, unheard thing to the old person during Severian's 24 \nhour day with this family. I am pretty sure Wolfe is trying to hide the use \nof pronouns to hide the fact that Severian has mistaken an old woman for an \nold man. A hint to this deception might be use of the name Herais for \nCasdoe's mother in Thrax. In early Christian legend, Herais was a woman who \nhad changed into a man in mid-life. But perhaps the use of Herais is \naccidental by Wolfe (is it?).\n\nI think this deception is used to disguise Severian's family tree, which I \nwill get to in a later post, as well as confuse the Rudesind-Fechin issue.\n\nAnyway, the old woman, as I'd like to call her now, talks about Fechin more \nthe way a woman would. She admits he looks like a monkey but is so tall and \n\"the handsomest boy around\". He could make any girl do anything for him. \nEven share sex partners I think, though of course the old woman doesn't \nadmit that part. Fechin sleeps with another girl (a beautiful, blonde I \nsuspect) while (the future) old woman waits downstairs. The beautiful woman \nhas been waiting and watching for Fechin in the upstairs window. There is \nanother BotNS charcter whose first memory is sitting in a window, with \npretty things, trays and a rood.\n\n(BTW, there is another saint who is famous for sitting in a window (to hear \nPaul preach). But her name is Thecla. Might be a coincidene.. or...)\n\nAnyway Fechin draws pictures of both of girls (on a rare piece of paper she \nprovided). And draws one of himself I think. He keeps all the pictures. The \nold woman also talks about Fechin stealing a copper pan. He might use it as \na boat, or might use it as a mirror...presumably to make (another) \nself-portrait.\n\nI hate to stretch things too far but I'll mention that Rudesind describes \nhis own, child's eyes in the painting as brown. Throughout the text Wolfe \nalways uses the adjective \"dark\" for brown eyes, except twice (that I know). \n First for Rudesind and later in a dream sequence, a Father-like Bull head \nhas the only other \"brown\" eye we see. This may be a connection for both \nRudesind and Fechin to Father Inire. Perhaps it should be noted that Saint \nRudesind was a Benedictine monk, the order founded on the edict called \"The \nBenedictine Bull\". But maybe that's....never mind.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c68422$7681a440$5b3dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-30T19:51:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fechin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bsharp wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The next objection is the old person living in Casdoe's house. There is\nsomething VERY strange about this person. Unreliable Severian refers to\nthis old person as Casdoe's father at one point and Becan's father at\nanother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "---------------------------------------------------------\nThen, for the first time since I had been in the house, the old man spoke.\n\"Becan, come over here! I want to tell you about Fechin.\" It was a moment\nbefore I understood that he was addressing me under the impression that I\nwas his son-in-law. (SWORD, chap. XV)\n--------------------------------------------------------\nAfter a time Casdoe, her father, and little Severian emerged. (chap. XVII)\n-------------------------------------------------------\nI reflected that the old man must be exhausted by now, that it was\nsurprising that his daughter could still urge him on; (ibid)\n------------------------------------------------------\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, the old woman, as I'd like to call her now, talks about Fechin more\nthe way a woman would. She admits he looks like a monkey but is so tall and\n\"the handsomest boy around\". He could make any girl do anything for him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--------------------------------------------------------\n\"His face wasn't a monkey's face at all. Fechin was handsome the handsomest\naround. He could always get food or money from a woman.\" (chap. XV)\n-------------------------------------------------------\nI had gone across the room to listen to him, partly because he spoke\nindistinctly and partly out of respect, for his aged face reminded me a\nlittle of Master Palaemon's, though he had his natural eyes. \"I once met a\nman of your age who had posed for Fechin,\" I said. (ibid)\n-----------------------------------------------------\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hate to stretch things too far but I'll mention that Rudesind describes\nhis own, child's eyes in the painting as brown. Throughout the text Wolfe\nalways uses the adjective \"dark\" for brown eyes, except twice (that I\nknow).\n First for Rudesind and later in a dream sequence, a Father-like Bull head\nhas the only other \"brown\" eye we see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----------------------------------------------------\nRich brown hair spilled down her back. I think I recognized her even before\nshe turned and I saw the high cheekbones and her long, brown eyes it was\nAgia. (ibid)\n----------------------------------------------------\nShe shook her head; the narrow, brown eyes were dancing. (chap. XVI)\n----------------------------------------------------\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-05-31T00:44:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fechin", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c68422$7681a440$5b3dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Roy, you are a great resource. How could I forget Agia's eyes! The \nbrown eyes give me another valued piece to the puzzle I had to guess about \nbefore. Not far to go, now." } ] }, { "message_id": "<004801c6846b$373dc540$6d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-05-31T04:32:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fechin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nThanks Roy, you are a great resource." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are quite welcome. While I'm thinking about it, there is another small\nmatter you might want to consider regarding your \"Naming Rule 2a\". You" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wrote:\nI propose that it wasn't a mistake and that these characters are important\nin introducing this 2a. naming rule which is- The name of a kaibit shall be\na derived, diminuative name of the cell donor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Other of the few examples which could fit this naming rule are\nDomnicellae" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Domnina and Pelagia and Pega.<<\n\n\"Domnicellae\" isn't a name; it is a rank among the Pelerines.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-05T19:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fechin", "in_reply_to": "<004801c6846b$373dc540$6d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "bob writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. Perhaps y'all knew he was historical, but I confess my own \nignorance--absolute and complete." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bob, I found Nicolai Fechin in a web search too. I was struck also by the \nfact that this Fechin and Wolfe's Fechin choose young women and themselves \nas favorite subjects. I've been trying to find out if he had red hair as a \nyoung man.\n\nFechin art gallery: http://www.erbzine.com/mag3/0349.html\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370606051216k26113c8asc3cd6040f5e2ace@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-05T19:16:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fechin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somehow ... I've never been able to take Fechin very seriously. I\nsuspect after all these years that his resonated in my mind with\nSteppin Fetchit.\n\n--Dan'l, embarassed" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] } ] }