{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4639", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4639, "subject": "Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2006-06-02T03:55:52+00:00", "last": "2006-06-06T18:15:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<3c6a5f235f9f82a3606ff7d0604b137e@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "from": { "name": "Adrian Robert", "address": "arobert at cogsci.ucsd.edu" }, "date": "2006-06-02T03:55:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians \nsay light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order \ngrows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers \njust as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? \nPerhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. \n Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a \nrandomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy \n(like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an \norder of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world.\"\n\n(Shadow, chap. 24)\n\n\nCan any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this \ngem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those \nremarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet \nconnecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy \nand measurement?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-02T10:17:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "in_reply_to": "<3c6a5f235f9f82a3606ff7d0604b137e@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No promises, but it sure looks like some of the stuff that, several years \nago, Kurt Rudolph? (sp) wrote on the Gnostic Gospels found at Nag Hammadi.\n\n\nFrom: Adrian Robert \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: (urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...\nDate: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:55:52 -0400\n\n\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians\nsay light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order\ngrows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers\njust as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air?\nPerhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe.\n Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a\nrandomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy\n(like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an\norder of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world.\"\n\n(Shadow, chap. 24)\n\n\nCan any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this\ngem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those\nremarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet\nconnecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy\nand measurement?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Machin", "address": "jfmachin at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-05T12:15:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about theology, but this passage certainly brings to mind \nKant's Critique of Pure Reason. He made a distinction between phenomena \n(things as they are perceived) and noumena (things as they are in themselves \n(“ding an sich”)). His denial that any real understanding of the universe as \nit actually is possible has always made me think about similar schools of \nthought in gnosticism and kabbalism (making the admittedly big assumption \nthat the unknowable universe and the unknowable increate are \ninterchangeable).\n\nFrom: Adrian Robert \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: (urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...\nDate: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:55:52 -0400\n\n\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians\nsay light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order\ngrows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers\njust as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air?\nPerhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe.\n Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a\nrandomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy\n(like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an\norder of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world.\"\n\n(Shadow, chap. 24)\n\n\nCan any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this\ngem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those\nremarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet\nconnecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy\nand measurement?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-06-05T13:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I deny wisdom or knowledge of Wisdom; however, as a science fiction fan the \nthought that came to mind when I first read this 20 some years ago was, \"Ah, \nthis man reads Roger Zelazny, too.\" Who, of course robbed his from earlier \ntexts (as you were subsuming of Wolfe) such as the Upa nishads or Hindi \nmystical writings drawn from several of the Vedas (Max Muller's translation \nonly one I've dealt with). And, of course, we may thank Ms. Wolfe's \ncreativity for going on from there. And, btw, I have read passages of the \nBOTNS in Bible study class to share insights.\n\n\n\nI don't know about theology, but this passage certainly brings to mind \nKant's Critique of Pure Reason. He made a distinction between phenomena \n(things as they are perceived) and noumena (things as they are in themselves \n(“ding an sich”)). His denial that any real understanding of the universe as \nit actually is possible has always made me think about similar schools of \nthought in gnosticism and kabbalism (making the admittedly big assumption \nthat the unknowable universe and the unknowable increate are \ninterchangeable).\n\nFrom: Adrian Robert \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: (urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...\nDate: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:55:52 -0400\n\n\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians\nsay light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order\ngrows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers\njust as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air?\nPerhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe.\n Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a\nrandomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy\n(like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an\norder of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world.\"\n\n(Shadow, chap. 24)\n\n\nCan any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this\ngem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those\nremarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet\nconnecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy\nand measurement?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1285792762.20060606201347@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-06-06T18:13:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "in_reply_to": "<3c6a5f235f9f82a3606ff7d0604b137e@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Adrian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Friday, June 2, 2006, 5:55:52 AM, you wrote:\n\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians\nsay light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order \ngrows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers\njust as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? \nPerhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe.\n Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a\nrandomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy\n(like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an \norder of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Shadow, chap. 24)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this\ngem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those \nremarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet \nconnecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy \nand measurement?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good joke. He makes it seem like his usual Kabbalistic or\nneoplatonic influences, and this is simply straightforward quantum\nphysics." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nINTERIA.PL dla kobiet... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f193b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14838124.20060606201549@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-06-06T18:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ...", "in_reply_to": "<1285792762.20060606201347@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Adrian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Friday, June 2, 2006, 5:55:52 AM, you wrote:\n\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians\nsay light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order \ngrows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers\njust as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? \nPerhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe.\n Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a\nrandomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy\n(like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an \norder of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Shadow, chap. 24)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this\ngem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those \nremarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet \nconnecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy \nand measurement?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good joke. He makes it seem like his usual Kabbalistic or\nneoplatonic influences, and this is simply straightforward quantum\nphysics." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nINTERIA.PL dla kobiet... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f193b" } ] } ] }