# Order and chaos, light and dark, ... *The Urth list — 6 messages, 4 voices, 02 Jun 2006* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Adrian Robert *02 Jun 2006, 03:55* "The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an order of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world." (Shadow, chap. 24) Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this gem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those remarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet connecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy and measurement? --- ### Bob Miller *02 Jun 2006, 10:17 · in reply to Adrian Robert* No promises, but it sure looks like some of the stuff that, several years ago, Kurt Rudolph? (sp) wrote on the Gnostic Gospels found at Nag Hammadi. From: Adrian Robert Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: (urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ... Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:55:52 -0400 "The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an order of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world." (Shadow, chap. 24) Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this gem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those remarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet connecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy and measurement? --- ### James Machin *05 Jun 2006, 12:15 · follows Bob Miller* I don't know about theology, but this passage certainly brings to mind Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. He made a distinction between phenomena (things as they are perceived) and noumena (things as they are in themselves (“ding an sich”)). His denial that any real understanding of the universe as it actually is possible has always made me think about similar schools of thought in gnosticism and kabbalism (making the admittedly big assumption that the unknowable universe and the unknowable increate are interchangeable). From: Adrian Robert Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: (urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ... Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:55:52 -0400 "The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an order of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world." (Shadow, chap. 24) Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this gem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those remarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet connecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy and measurement? --- ### Bob Miller *05 Jun 2006, 13:28 · in reply to James Machin* I deny wisdom or knowledge of Wisdom; however, as a science fiction fan the thought that came to mind when I first read this 20 some years ago was, "Ah, this man reads Roger Zelazny, too." Who, of course robbed his from earlier texts (as you were subsuming of Wolfe) such as the Upa nishads or Hindi mystical writings drawn from several of the Vedas (Max Muller's translation only one I've dealt with). And, of course, we may thank Ms. Wolfe's creativity for going on from there. And, btw, I have read passages of the BOTNS in Bible study class to share insights. I don't know about theology, but this passage certainly brings to mind Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. He made a distinction between phenomena (things as they are perceived) and noumena (things as they are in themselves (“ding an sich”)). His denial that any real understanding of the universe as it actually is possible has always made me think about similar schools of thought in gnosticism and kabbalism (making the admittedly big assumption that the unknowable universe and the unknowable increate are interchangeable). From: Adrian Robert Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: (urth) Order and chaos, light and dark, ... Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:55:52 -0400 "The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an order of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world." (Shadow, chap. 24) Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this gem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those remarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet connecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy and measurement? --- ### Stanislaus *06 Jun 2006, 18:13 · in reply to Adrian Robert* Hello Adrian, > Friday, June 2, 2006, 5:55:52 AM, you wrote: > "The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians > say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order > grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers > just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? > Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. > Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a > randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy > (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an > order of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world." > (Shadow, chap. 24) > Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this > gem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those > remarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet > connecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy > and measurement? That's a good joke. He makes it seem like his usual Kabbalistic or neoplatonic influences, and this is simply straightforward quantum physics. ``` Best regards, Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- INTERIA.PL dla kobiet... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f193b ``` --- ### Stanislaus *06 Jun 2006, 18:15 · follows Stanislaus* Hello Adrian, > Friday, June 2, 2006, 5:55:52 AM, you wrote: > "The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologians > say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order > grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers > just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into air? > Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. > Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a > randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy > (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes -- set by light in an > order of which they themselves are incapable -- to be the real world." > (Shadow, chap. 24) > Can any of the wise folk on this list lay hold of antecedents for this > gem.. some musings of St. Thomas, perhaps, or some other of those > remarkable intellects of Christian theology little known today? Yet > connecting so beguilingly with the physicist's conceptions of entropy > and measurement? That's a good joke. He makes it seem like his usual Kabbalistic or neoplatonic influences, and this is simply straightforward quantum physics. ``` Best regards, Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- INTERIA.PL dla kobiet... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f193b ``` ---