{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4660", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4660, "subject": "Two tombs", "messages": 15, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-07-03T23:51:19+00:00", "last": "2006-07-10T08:30:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001201c69efb$97c9c300$ba3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-03T23:51:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last year there was some debate about whether or not the mausoleum where\nCilinia was buried was the same mausoleum where Severian played as a boy.\nThey are *not* the same, and I can prove it.\n\nThere were a total of five coffins in Sev's mausoleum, two open on the\nfloor and three intact on shelves. These latter three were too heavy for him\nto even shift. (SHADOW, chap. II) Where Cilinia had been buried there were\n\"lots of coffins. They were supposed to be up on stone shelves, but most of\nthem were not, and a lot were empty.\" (RTTW, 391) \"Lots\" is, I think, more\nthan five, and \"a lot\" is certainly more than two. At any rate, no matter\nhow you parse it, the majority of the coffins in Sev's mausoleum were on\nshelves. The majority of the coffins in Cilinia's mausoleum were on the\nfloor.\n\nPlus, Cilinia's coffin was half the size of adult coffins.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060704140352.F249BDA834@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-07-04T14:03:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<001201c69efb$97c9c300$ba3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 09:51:19 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nLast year there was some debate about whether or not the mausoleum " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "where\nCilinia was buried was the same mausoleum where Severian played as " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a boy.\nThey are *not* the same, and I can prove it.\n\nThere were a total of five coffins in Sev's mausoleum, two open on " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the\nfloor and three intact on shelves. These latter three were too \nheavy for him\nto even shift. (SHADOW, chap. II) Where Cilinia had been buried \nthere were\n\"lots of coffins. They were supposed to be up on stone shelves, \nbut most of\nthem were not, and a lot were empty.\" (RTTW, 391) \"Lots\" is, I \nthink, more\nthan five, and \"a lot\" is certainly more than two. At any rate, no " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "matter\nhow you parse it, the majority of the coffins in Sev's mausoleum \nwere on\nshelves. The majority of the coffins in Cilinia's mausoleum were \non the\nfloor.\n\nPlus, Cilinia's coffin was half the size of adult coffins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. \n\nI've tried to make up stories about who the other coffins in Sev's \ntomb might belong to, but I can't find anything to go on. And why \n*two* open? \n\nIdeas, anyone? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060704182758.35580.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-07-04T18:27:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<20060704140352.F249BDA834@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nI've tried to make up stories about who the other\ncoffins in Sev's \ntomb might belong to, but I can't find anything to\ngo on. And why \n*two* open? \n\nIdeas, anyone? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One is Severian's analog (Ymar, imo) or Sev himself,\nthe other his twin sister (probably Merryn, possibly\nValeria) though I feel strongly that the sex of Sev's\ntwin is variable. There's a lot of gender ambiguity in\nWolfe's work, it seems to me, beginning with 5HC.\n\nDon\n\np.s. I've finished Soldier of Sidon, and I couldn't be\nmore pleased. If anyone else has read it, feel free to\nwrite me offlist. Otherwise, I eagerly await the\nOctober discussions." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-05T20:50:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<20060704182758.35580.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thalassocrat and don write:\nI've tried to make up stories about who the other" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "coffins in Sev's tomb might belong to, but I can't find anything to\ngo on. And why *two* open?\n\nIdeas, anyone?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One is Severian's analog (Ymar, imo) or Sev himself,\nthe other his twin sister (probably Merryn, possibly\nValeria) though I feel strongly that the sex of Sev's\ntwin is variable. There's a lot of gender ambiguity in\nWolfe's work, it seems to me, beginning with 5HC." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have a good practical theory within the story regarding Severian's \nmausoleum but I always think the five coffins are related to Five Heads in \nsome way. And I think most agree that the Five Heads of Cerberus are related \nin some way to Gene Wolfe.\n\nAlso, for some reason, I think the opened coffins have let someone out, \nwhile the other three have a person/character not yet released. So maybe the \nfirst coffin is the Number 5 incarnation of Gene Wolfe and the second coffin \nis the Severian incarnation. Not very well supported, but...for what it's \nworth.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6a0cd$94bea620$b23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-06T07:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nI've tried to make up stories about who the other coffins in Sev's\ntomb might belong to, but I can't find anything to go on. And why\n*two* open?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The clues about the mausoleum are few and scattered. The image of the man on\nthe funeral bronze (we don't even know which coffin, if any, it may have\nbeen associated with) was said by Severian to look just as he looked at the\ntime he was resurrected in Apu's tomb. By my calculations, Sev should have\nbeen about seventy years old at the time he was strangled as Apu. The\nlogical implication is that Sev died not long after returning to Ushas and\nwriting URTH; that or some cognate of himself who was that same age died\nsomewhen in time and the body placed in the mausoleum by someone unknown, at\nan unknown time.\n\nOne bit of information comes from when Sev placed the skull before the\nclosed door of the drowned mausoleum. (URTH, 335) He said that the flood had\nclosed the long-jammed door, \"having completed a motion begun perhaps a\ncentury ago.\" That implies that someone was messing around in the mausoleum\nsomething like thirty years before he was born. I assume that a body (or\ntwo) was removed. Who did it and why? But what I would really like to know\nis, *where are the bodies*?\n\nIt is possible that each of the five coffins at one time held the body of\nthe same man -- Severian, from one or another of his incarnations. He was\nforever getting himself killed.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-07T11:45:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6a0cd$94bea620$b23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One bit of information comes from when Sev placed the skull before the\nclosed door of the drowned mausoleum. (URTH, 335) He said that the flood \nhad\nclosed the long-jammed door, \"having completed a motion begun perhaps a\ncentury ago.\" That implies that someone was messing around in the mausoleum\nsomething like thirty years before he was born. I assume that a body (or\ntwo) was removed. Who did it and why? But what I would really like to know\nis, *where are the bodies*?\nIt is possible that each of the five coffins at one time held the body of\nthe same man -- Severian, from one or another of his incarnations. He was\nforever getting himself killed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've thought about that but somehow the pieces don't seem to fit together. \nHow many times does Severian die in the text? He says the first Severian \ndidn't drown while swimming, and neither did he, because of Juturna. He \npostulates that the skull he found underwater was a boy who drowned in his \nplace, then he puts the skull at the threshold of the now closed mausoleum \nas Roy noted. I wish I could tell if that showed the death of an incarnation \nor not.\n\nHe definitely died on the Sanguinary Field from his avern wound. As he dies \nhe hears bells and sees the world as an Easter egg with all the artist's \ncolors flashing. This is the only death where we have another observer to \nhelp us. Dorcas tells, \"I remember seeing the leaf, a horrible thing like a \nflatworm made of iron, half in your body and turning red as it drank your \nblood. Then it fell away. I don't know how to describe it. It was as \nthough everything I had seen had been wrong. But it wasn't wrong. I \nremember what I saw.\"\n\nWhat happened there? Maybe it was it the nascent power of his claw/star \nworking to shift time back a little, to where the avern didn't fully \npenetrate? Doesn't seem like an eidolon could have been created and \nSeverian's dead body spirited away without the crowd and Dorcas seeing.\n\nHis death in the flood in the throne room seems to me to be the last gasp of \nhis claw/star resurrection power. Again there are bells which have rung, \nthough he sees only blue color this time. That sort of resurrection \nwouldn't leave a body.\n\nHe definitely dies and leaves a body on Tzadkiel's ship and as Apu Punchau \nso if somebody is collecting his old bodies and putting them in the \nmausoleum, that would account for two coffins. Anyone have thoughts on the \nthird?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6a251$eb65b600$893ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-08T05:46:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nHe definitely dies and leaves a body on Tzadkiel's ship and as Apu Punchau\nso if somebody is collecting his old bodies and putting them in the\nmausoleum, that would account for two coffins. Anyone have thoughts on the\nthird?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The body of strangled Apu came back to life when the first light from the\nWhite Fountain reached Urth, so we don't really know what may have happened\nto it after Sev used the Corridors of Time to get back to Ushas. The revived\nApu was exactly equal in knowledge and power to the newly made eidolon,\nequal at least up to the moment he was strangled. So if eidolon Severian\ncould walk the Corridors, so could he. Who knows where/when he may have\ngone?\n\nAn obvious candidate for one of the coffins is the person for whom the\nmausoleum was built in the first place. In the second chapter of SHADOW we\nlearn:\n\n\"Our necropolis is said to be the oldest in Nessus. That is certainly false,\nbut the very existence of the error testifies to a real antiquity, though\nthe autarchs were not buried there even when the Citadel was their\nstronghold, and the great families--then as now--preferred to inter their\nlong-limbed dead in vaults on their own estates. But the armigers and\noptimates of the city favored the highest slopes, near the Citadel wall; and\nthe poorer commons lay below them until the farthest reaches of the bottom\nlands, pressing against the tenements that came to line Gyoll, held potter's\nfields. As a boy I seldom went so far alone, or half so far.\"\n\nAutarchs had never been buried on Citadel Hill, which eliminates Ymar;\nneither were exultants. The mausoleum was evidently built during the period\nof the autarchy, by or for an armiger or optimate. Neither armigers nor\noptimates were normally classed as \"servants of the throne\", but neither\ndoes that exclude them; after all, the cacogen Inire was such a servant.\n\nThere are scattered hints in URTH that Sev, in the future, would do some\ntime traveling that was not related in the manuscript. One or more of those\ntrips may have been directly related to the building of the mausoleum. This\ntheory is reinforced by the three graven images above the door, which point\ndirectly to Sev and which would have no special significance for anyone\nelse. I don't know what position he may have held during the early autarchy\nor how he died, if he did die (it may have been a cognate), but it earned\nhim a position high on Citadel Hill.\n\nAnother candidate for a coffin is the \"first Severian\" who was not (who\n*could not*) be returned to his own time after failing in Yesod.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060708072946.90068.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-07-08T07:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6a251$eb65b600$893ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n\nThe body of strangled Apu came back to life when the\nfirst light from the\nWhite Fountain reached Urth, so we don't really know\nwhat may have happened\nto it after Sev used the Corridors of Time to get\nback to Ushas. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He returned to Springfield and the Quickie Mart of\ncourse. . .\nSorry, but I absolutely could not resist that.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44AFE95A.7090302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-08T17:20:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<20060708072946.90068.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "don doggett wrote:\n\n--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The body of strangled Apu came back to life when the\nfirst light from the\nWhite Fountain reached Urth, so we don't really know\nwhat may have happened\nto it after Sev used the Corridors of Time to get\nback to Ushas. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He returned to Springfield and the Quickie Mart of\ncourse. . .\nSorry, but I absolutely could not resist that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Please do not offer peanuts to my god.\"\n\n\nHas anyone ever found the etymology of \"punchau\"?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060709045633.3C434DA822@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-07-09T04:56:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<44AFE95A.7090302@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 15:46:48 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nThe mausoleum was evidently built during \nthe period\nof the autarchy, by or for an armiger or optimate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you assume that? Assuming continuity betwen BOTNS and LS/SS, \nI think we can safely assume that in pre-Autarchial days, the \nnecropolis could be a resing place of the highest status. Why else \nwould Typhon's daughter have been interred there (in what I guess \nwas probably Typhon's family mausoleum)? The tomb might have \nbelonged to some very high-ranking, pre-Autarchial figure, however \nrelated to Sev." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6a39e$01299360$df3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-09T21:23:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<20060709045633.3C434DA822@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted and wrote:\nThe mausoleum was evidently built during\nthe period\nof the autarchy, by or for an armiger or optimate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you assume that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The images above the door, for one thing. If they represent Tzadkiel's Ship,\nthe White Fountain and the Claw, they had no meaning before Typhon's era.\nThe cult of the Conciliator didn't exist until Severian was sent from Yesod\nto Typhon's era for the express purpose of establishing the legend. The\nthorn that became the Claw and founded the Pelerines was also delivered\nthen. There was no need for a White Fountain before then, or a Ship to take\nsomeone to Yesod to earn it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Assuming continuity betwen BOTNS and LS/SS,\nI think we can safely assume that in pre-Autarchial days, the\nnecropolis could be a resing place of the highest status. Why else\nwould Typhon's daughter have been interred there (in what I guess\nwas probably Typhon's family mausoleum)? The tomb might have\nbelonged to some very high-ranking, pre-Autarchial figure, however\nrelated to Sev." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apart from Cilinia's burial on the hill, I don't think there exists another\nshred of textual evidence in the twelve books to connect any rulers, by\nwhatever title or name prior to Sev, with any mausoleum in the necropolis. I\ndon't know how much time passed between Typhon's unceremonious demise behind\nhis curtain and Ymar's rise to power, but I don't see anyone on Urth\nerecting a burial monument on his behalf. He was both feared and hated while\nhe lived, and we know he wasn't buried anywhere.\n\nAfter Sev the Conciliator prophesized Typhon's death behind the curtain,\nTyphon's retort indicates that, if he were to die at all, he expected he\nwould be interred in the skull cavity of his mountain. (URTH, 275) So if a\n\"family mausoleum\" was constructed on Citadel Hill, it must have been done\nwhile he still was alive, and it was intended to house only his family, not\nhimself. Cilinia died young, whether in consequence of her revolt against\nher father or not. I suspect the former. If that is true, it is quite\npossible that most, if not all, of his family who may still have been on\nUrth at the time of his death died before him. At any rate, none of them\nseem to have had an impact on Urth's future history.\n\nBut this is all conjecture. I still see no reason to suppose Sev's mausoleum\nexisted prior to Typhon's era, and his mausoleum was not the one where\nCilinia was buried.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<775047050.20060709233110@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2006-07-09T21:31:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<44AFE95A.7090302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Jeff," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Saturday, July 8, 2006, 7:20:26 PM, you wrote:\ndon doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone ever found the etymology of \"punchau\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apu_Punchau\n\n\"In Inca mythology, Inti was the sun god, as well a patron deity of\nTahuantinsuyu. His exact origin is not known. The most common story\nsays he is the son of Viracocha, the god of civilization. ...\n\nInti was also known as Apu Punchau, which means \"leader [of the]\ndaytime\". Inti is represented as a golden disc with a human face. A\ngreat golden disk representing Inti was captured by the Spanish\nconquistadors in 1571 and was sent to the Pope via Spain. It has since\nbeen lost.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\n Stanislaus mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nZobacz, gdzie mieszka Twoja dziewczyna!\nhttp://map24.interia.pl/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060710031457.38545.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-07-10T03:14:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c6a39e$01299360$df3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n(regarding Typhon's family)\n\n At" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "any rate, none of them\nseem to have had an impact on Urth's future history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This isn't quite true since, as the gods of mainframe\non the Whorl, they helped to shape Silk and thus\nSeverian, if the last book of the SS is to be\nbelieved. But that's not really what you meant by\nyour statement, I imagine. You mean the immediate\ninfluence of their mortal lifespans, no?\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.3.4.2.20060710091948.0305c658@localhost>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-07-10T08:25:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<775047050.20060709233110@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 22:31 09/07/2006, you wrote:\nInti was also known as Apu Punchau, which means \"leader [of the] daytime\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Merryn: \"The Mother has told us that his name means the Head of Day.\"\n\nIs it generally accepted that the Apu-Punchau episode takes place in \nEarth's 'real' Inca period, rather than in some future-historic \nperiod for which Inca signifiers are used in the same way that Latin is?\n\nMo" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44B21029.4000506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-10T08:30:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Two tombs", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.3.4.2.20060710091948.0305c658@localhost>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 22:31 09/07/2006, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inti was also known as Apu Punchau, which means \"leader [of the] daytime\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Merryn: \"The Mother has told us that his name means the Head of Day.\"\n\nIs it generally accepted that the Apu-Punchau episode takes place in \nEarth's 'real' Inca period, rather than in some future-historic \nperiod for which Inca signifiers are used in the same way that Latin is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is, except for (as the author says) it being the previous \ncycle of creation, before our latest Big Bang. Though I am not sure if \nhe is speaking as the same GW who is the notional translator." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }