{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4662", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4662, "subject": "Urth before Earth", "messages": 18, "voices": 7, "first": "2006-07-18T16:38:24+00:00", "last": "2006-07-23T18:22:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-18T16:38:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I first read Shadow of the Torturer back in the 80's, like many I first \nthought it was set in our past. Later with references to anti-gravity, \ninterstellar travel, polychrome sand and endless depths of archaeology it \nwas clear the story was set far in our future. But why change the spelling \nof our planet to Urth?\n\nI have come to think that the spelling is to indicate that Urth is not our \nEarth but a similar planet in a future (not past) time frame, perhaps in \nYesod.\n\nI think of Yesod being in the future of Briah because you have to travel to \nthe end of the Briah, end of time (big collapse, final black hole?) to reach \nthe beginning of Yesod (big bang, white fountain?). I think time in Wolfe's \nuniverses is arranged in a spiral (hence the Hiero's preference for that \nshape) allowing shortcuts to bridge between the coils, between one universe \nand another.\n\nThe key piece of evidence for Earth being in Urth's future starts with The \nLast House. The structure and function of this place is clear: You travel \na labyrinthine path exactly and reach a vertical structure. You can't find \nthe place if you don't follow the path exactly. The bottom floors of this \nstructure are earlier in time and the top floors are progressively in the \nfuture.\n\nAt the end of Citadel of the Autarch, Severian can't find the Atrium of Time \nuntil he follows a marked path exactly. The Atrium itself isn't a time \ntravelling structure (nor does time stand still there, the seasons change). \nBut the Atrium is surrounded by towers and surely there is time travel \navailable in them. The towers are guarded by four sorts of extinct beasts, \nGlyptodons (gigantic heavy-armored armadillo), Barylambdas (1500 lbs. \npig-like creature), Arctothers (giant bear) and Smilodons (sabre-tooth \ntiger). I will speculate that the speed of each animal might denote the \namount of time travel each tower provides but that is just a guess. (I see \nevidence that Ultan's Library and the Naviscaput's lair are also time \ntraversing structures.)\n\nValeria lives in one of the towers and her antique appearance may result \nfrom her residing in the lower levels. In fact, she has never gone to the \nupper levels of her tower where I am pretty sure you can find the Path Of \nAir to the House Absolute. (more evidence for that someday, when I try to \npresent my ideas on Severian's family tree)\n\nAnother labyrinthine path leading to a vertical structure can be found in \nthe Jungle Room of the Botanic Gardens. In fact, when Mannea gives Severian \na map to find The Last House, Severian thinks of the Jungle Hut for no \nexplained reason. In the Jungle Hut, Severian sees people who are \napparently from Earth. An Earth book (Bible) is quoted from and we see a \nyellow sun and an airplane. Following the pattern of The Last House, if \nEarth was in the past, Severian should have to descend to find a view of it. \n Since he ascends, Earth must be in the future of Urth. But since Earth is \nat a much earlier technological stage than Urth, it must exist in another \nuniverse or time frame. Some evidence points to Yesod.\n\nThe only other place I know of in BoTNS where an Earth book is quoted is L. \nCarroll's Through The Looking Glass, in the Antechamber, by Jonas. Jonas \nknows the real story of Theseus, Kim Lee Soong is familiar, so Jonas must be \nfrom Earth. His shipmates also. A normal spaceship couldn't return him to \nwhere he came from but Father Inire's mirrors could, traversing space and \ntime.\n\nThe only things we see appearing in Father Inire's mirrors are a \n(Christian?) silvery fish and the angelic Tzadkiel. Since everything in \nYesod looks sort of heavenly, I tend to think Inire's mirrors are a path to \nYesod, which is where Jonas wants to go. So..I think Earth is in Yesod and \nin Urth's future.\n\n-bsharp\n\np.s. I submitted these ideas in an essay to Ultan's Library but they weren't \ninterested. So, UL readers must make do with the last entrant there, \nMantis' Lions, Tigers, Bears from 2003. I have a lot of respect for Mantis' \nscholarship (who doesn't?) but I can't say I easily accept the view that the \nJungle Sorcerers and Master Ash are symbolic bear guardians nor that tigers \nand bears in the Atrium of Time are addressed but glyptodons and barylambdas \nare ignored." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607181122t4fce93c3gcce33ce6257a3e09@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-18T18:22:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/06, b sharp wrote:\nWhen I first read Shadow of the Torturer back in the 80's, like\nmany I first thought it was set in our past. Later with references\nto anti-gravity, interstellar travel, polychrome sand and endless\ndepths of archaeology it was clear the story was set far in our\nfuture. But why change the spelling of our planet to Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To indicate that it is not our Earth. You're right there. However,\nwhat appears* to be the case is that it is \"our Earth\" in a previous\ncycle of the Universe, but in the far future (in that cycle) by\ncomparison with where we are in the current cycle. That is,\nUrth at the time of Severian is a billion years or so older than\nEarth at the time of Gene Wolfe. (There is argument about this,\nand some have claimed as little as a thousand years, which I\nfind quite implausible.)\n\n----------\n* Where \"appears\" is roughly equivalent to \"Wolfe has said\n as much.\"\n----------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think of Yesod being in the future of Briah because you have\nto travel to the end of the Briah, end of time (big collapse, final\nblack hole?) to reach the beginning of Yesod (big bang, white\nfountain?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting ... I thought it was just because the universal\nsingularity at the moment between cycles is the only place\nwhere you can actually break out of Briah and into Yesod\n(or, at least, the easiest place)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think time in Wolfe's universes is arranged in a spiral (hence\nthe Hiero's preference for that shape)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with the arrangement. I had somehow thought of\nthe Heiros' spirals as related to DNA. But this makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "allowing shortcuts to bridge between the coils, between one\nuniverse and another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is (I think) spiral is the cycle of Briah. Yesod and Briah,\nhowever, are separate issues: they are (if I'm not mistaken)\nbranches of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only other place I know of in BoTNS where an Earth book\nis quoted is L. Carroll's Through The Looking Glass, in the\nAntechamber, by Jonas. Jonas knows the real story of\nTheseus, Kim Lee Soong is familiar, so Jonas must be from\nEarth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... or from a much eariier point in the history of Urth, depending\non just how exact the cycles are..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only things we see appearing in Father Inire's mirrors are a\n(Christian?) silvery fish and the angelic Tzadkiel. Since\neverything in Yesod looks sort of heavenly, I tend to think\nInire's mirrors are a path to Yesod, which is where Jonas\nwants to go. So..I think Earth is in Yesod and in Urth's future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earth is definitely in Urth's future. The unique event called\nthe Incarnation happens in the Earth-cycle, and has not yet\nhappened in the Urth-cycle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T05:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607181122t4fce93c3gcce33ce6257a3e09@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I am in the minority (probably a minority of one) in thinking Earth \nmight reside in Yesod and that Yesod is the future of Briah, so I am \nprobably wrong about that. Wouldn't be the first time.\n\nTony Ellis' objection is that in Citadel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian calls Yesod \"the universe higher than our own\". 'Higher' is an\nodd word to use if all he meant was 'in the future of our own', and\nsince there are a perhaps infinite number of future flowerings of our\nuniverse, he should rather have said \"_a_ universe higher than our own\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, first I don't think we can rely on Severian, pre-Yesod trip, to be \nmuch of a cosmological expert but to me that statement is just a recognition \nthat Yesod is a stage further, just as fuligin is _the_ color darker than \nblack. I suppose there could be an infinite number of colors progressively \ndarker than black but they are beyond human perception or consideration. \nLikewise any universe further in the future than Yesod is beyond \ncomprehension to someone from Briah. \"Fuligin is _a_ color darker than \nblack\" ? Doesn't resonate, I think.\n\nAll this made me want a certain passage from Urth of the New Sun and I did \nfind it:\n\nSeverian notes there are more stars in the sky of planet Yesod than in \nUrth's sky. Apheta replies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"When we require them, the Hierogrammates will build more---, worlds as \nfair as this or more fair. >Suns for them too, should we require more suns. \n Thus for us they are there already. Time runs as >we ask here, and we \nlike their light\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was this passage that originally made me think that Severian travelled to \nthe end (of time) of Briah and arrived in the beginning of Yesod, still \nunder construction. So Earth will be created, in Yesod, far in the future \nof Apheta, and in the image of Urth.\n\nDid the Hierogrammates or some similar race construct Briah? Or is it a \ndirect product of natural forces, i.e. The Increate? Can this difference \nbetween Briah and Yesod be explained Kabbalistically?\n\nI like Dan'l's statement that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One could as easily ask of Christianity, \"What was the pointof all the \nrises and falls, the triumphs >and sufferings, of the nation of Israel?\" \nFrom the Christian standpoint, it appearsto have been \"to >prove that \nfallen humanity is not perfectable without the direct intervention of the \nIncreate, that >even aperfect Law can not save humanity, only grace.\" Could \na similar demonstration be going on >here on a grand scale, oneappropriate \nto Hiero-beings whose schemes cross the boundaries from >one cycle of Briah \nto the next?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if Yesod is reserved for Hieros, while Briah and all its residents are \njust destroyed, their atoms or quarks just get collapsed and big banged into \nanother Briah, then where is the reward? Where is the heaven? Where does \ngrace and salvation take you?\n\nA step closer to God? Well, then that should be Yesod, yes? If you make \nspiritual advancement you (or your cognate race) become God(s) in the next \nleve. In Wolfe's scheme perhaps we, on Earth, can also advance and move to \nthat level above Yesod? What we call \"heaven\" and another step closer to \nGod. (hm...why is only Tzadkiel named as a Hierogrammate? avoiding \npolytheism?).\n\nDan'l feels that concerning names used in BotNS, Wolfe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"carefully considered the historical and mythological significance of every \n_other_ person, place,\nand thing\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't agree with this. The most obvious counter-example for me is his use \nof Saint names. Except for Saint Dorcas being resurrected, I can't find any \nsignificance in his choices for the names of human Commonwealth residents \n(with the exception of kaibits having diminutive names). They seem picked \nfrom a list.\n\nBrings up a pet peeve of mine which is the assumed omnipotence of Gene \nWolfe. That his work contains unsolvable mysteries. His intelligence and \nknowledge are far greater than mine but I can't accept that the combined \nwisdom and problem solving skills of many intelligent people won't ever \nallow something approaching complete understanding of his work. I think it \nis possible that someday his books can be read with either a precise or \nintuitive understanding of what he intended with each and every passage. I \nadmit that is my goal, anyway. I am currently most mystified by the five \ncoffin conundrum discussed in the Two Tombs thread.\n\nAnyway,\n\nRegarding Gene Wolfe faced with certain questions in interviews, Dan'l \nwrites:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How shall I put this... Wolfe is sometimes a bit, ahhh,_disingenuous_ about \nsuch things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I will disagree, based on this and similar examples:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: Many of your books, particularly the Latro and Briah books, portray a \ndimly-seen conflict or at >least interaction of \"higher powers\" that is in \npart \"behind\" the human events. One sees the same >kind of thing in the \nBook of Daniel, chapter 11, and also in the Iliad. I'm wondering about the \norigin of this interesting theme in your writing, how you came to think \nof writing this way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No comment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's it. No pithy, convoluted, misleading answer to what I think is too \npenetrating a question, simply..\"No comment\".\n\nI get the impression, from all his writing and interviews, that Gene Wolfe \nhas certain principles he adheres to, and one of those is that tricksterism \nand manipulation is okay in artistic creation but not personal conduct. His \nfavored characters are all rather honest and plain spoken, while characters \nlike Agia think sideways and are always creating puzzles for others.\n\nTony Ellis responds to my:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only other place I know of in BoTNS where an Earth bookis quoted is L. \nCarroll's Through The Looking Glass..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "with" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's another for your collection, then: in The Sword of the \nLictor,chapter XXXV, Dr Talos alludes to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I checked chapter 35 and I think Tony refers to Talos' line- \"The castle? \nThe monster? The man of learning? I only just thought of it. Surely you \nknow that just as the momentous events of the past cast their shadows down \nthe ages, so now, when the sun is drawing toward the dark, our own shadows \nrace into the past to trouble mankind's dreams\"\n\nI have previous said I think Baldanders and Talos are a sly Wolfe allusion \nto Mary Shelley, a reverse Frankenstein where a monster creates a doctor.\n\nBut I think Talos' statement refers to the legend Llibio has recently told \nSeverian, about a small man from the south and the building of the castle \nand an evil giant, a legend which Severian has just told Talos. If Talos \nwas really refering directly to the Frankenstein book then he is saying the \nBaldanders story travelled back in time to Mary Shelly; then we are again \nsaying Earth is in the past of Urth.\n\nDan'l mentions the Neil Armstrong picture as an iteration of the same \npicture in our own Urth cycle. I interpret it differently. I think the \npicture and the twisted Earth stories on Urth are a result of the occasional \ndirect contact between Urth and Earth through mirrors or Jungle Huts. I \nthink Father Inire/Isangoma and Jonas are the primary characters where we \nsee examples of this and the Armstrong painting is one more by Fechin/Inire.\n\nSidenote question- Could sad old slender Jonas, riding his little merychip \nand hopelessly pursuing the haughty Jolenta be an allusion to Don Quixote, \nriding his nasty horse, Rocinante and pursuing the haughty Dulcinea? \nSeverian doesn't make a good Sancho Panza I suppose.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44BF2F08.6070207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T07:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607181122t4fce93c3gcce33ce6257a3e09@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 7/18/06, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I first read Shadow of the Torturer back in the 80's, like\nmany I first thought it was set in our past. Later with references\nto anti-gravity, interstellar travel, polychrome sand and endless\ndepths of archaeology it was clear the story was set far in our\nfuture. But why change the spelling of our planet to Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To indicate that it is not our Earth. You're right there. However,\nwhat appears* to be the case is that it is \"our Earth\" in a previous\ncycle of the Universe, but in the far future (in that cycle) by\nThat is,\nUrth at the time of Severian is a billion years or so older than\nEarth at the time of Gene Wolfe. (There is argument about this,\nand some have claimed as little as a thousand years, which I\nfind quite implausible.)\n\n----------\n* Where \"appears\" is roughly equivalent to \"Wolfe has said\n as much.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, he says it takes place \"perhaps a million years\" in the future, \nbut the \"perhaps\" releases him from any responsibility of accuracy. The \nStone Town certainly would not last a million years. Meanwhile, some \nconstellations from our time remain recognizeable in the sky, \nrestricting the time frame to within a few dozen millenia or so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earth is definitely in Urth's future. The unique event called\nthe Incarnation happens in the Earth-cycle, and has not yet\nhappened in the Urth-cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; IIRC, the Pelerines retain the cross \nin their iconography, the Brown Book contains both a distorted account \nof the US Civil War battle between the Monitor and the Merrimac and an \nadaptation of Kipling. The picture gallery contains a photograph of the \nvery Catholic Buzz Aldrin, taker of the first Communion on another world.\n\nIt's also possible that GW changed his mind since publication. \"G.W.\" in \nSHADOW's back matter writes as if not only is Urth the same as Earth, \nbut that several buildings today are still standing in that era." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607201034k17f314dfnc9d8a3a95634d792@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T17:34:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<44BF2F08.6070207@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/20/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nEarth is definitely in Urth's future. The unique event called\nthe Incarnation happens in the Earth-cycle, and has not yet\nhappened in the Urth-cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; IIRC, the Pelerines retain the cross\nin their iconography," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't say the Crucifixion hadn't occurred." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's also possible that GW changed his mind since publication.\n\"G.W.\" in SHADOW's back matter writes as if not only is Urth the\nsame as Earth, but that several buildings today are still standing\nin that era." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting interpretation. The exact quote is:\n\n \"To those who have preceded me in the study of the\n posthistoric world, and particularly to those collectors --\n too numerous to name here -- who have permitted me\n to examine artifacts surviving so many centuries of\n futurity, and most especially to those who have allowed\n me to visit and photograph the era's few extant buildings,\n I am truly grateful.\"\n\nThere's a huge ambiguity in this. On the one hand, he's talking\nabout \"futurity\" (and indeed he says earlier that he translated\nSeverian's book from \"a tongue that has not yet achieved\nexistence\"); on the other hand, he talks about surviving\nartifacts and buildings from that era in our day. I see two\nconsistent ways to interpret this.\n\nThe first is that some objects move backwards in time and\nage in that direction. Certainly I can't disprove this from the\ntext, but neither do I see any support for it anywhere outside\nthe works of T.H. White.\n\nThe second is that the iterations of Briah are so exact that\nthings like Kipling, the Crucifixion, and the Civil War all\ntook place more or less as they did in our world. This in\nand of itself doesn't strike me as any more unlikely than\nthat the universe cycles at all; and indeed, if the purpose\nof the iteration is to prepare a world in which the Incarnation\ncan take place, then it's likely that the next-to-last \"draft\" would\nbe quite close to the final work. What does concern me is the\nimplication that some artifacts and even buildings have\nsomehow survived the Grand Gnab-Big Bang pair that\nconnects Severian's iteration to ours: but given that Severian's\nms. does, the rest isn't beyond the pale." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44C10C24.7010108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-21T17:17:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607201034k17f314dfnc9d8a3a95634d792@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 7/20/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Earth is definitely in Urth's future. The unique event called\nthe Incarnation happens in the Earth-cycle, and has not yet\nhappened in the Urth-cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think that is supportable; IIRC, the Pelerines retain the cross\nin their iconography," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say the Crucifixion hadn't occurred." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there was no Incarnation, who was Crucified?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607211122y2ddc3d05pd1efd7c3c91f1be4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-21T18:22:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<44C10C24.7010108@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there was no Incarnation, who was Crucified?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The son of Joseph and Mary, who was both enlightened\nand possessed by the Outsider." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44C19CB3.1000506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T03:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607211122y2ddc3d05pd1efd7c3c91f1be4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nIf there was no Incarnation, who was Crucified?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The son of Joseph and Mary, who was both enlightened\nand possessed by the Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can we tell the difference?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607212351l38f32cc7v474cb49827921696@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T06:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<44C19CB3.1000506@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/21/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If there was no Incarnation, who was Crucified?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The son of Joseph and Mary, who was both enlightened\nand possessed by the Outsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can we tell the difference?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since it's fiction, we don't have to 8*)\n\nFrankly, I think Wolfe kind of wrote himself into a\ncorner here -- by having Urth's history _so_ parallel to\nEarths, he put himself in a position where there _had_\nto be something indistinguishable from the Christian\nChurch. But the Incarnation has to be an _utterly_\nunique event (says Christian theology). So the \"man\npossessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" who winds\nup getting crucified (in Silk's vision) is historically\nindistinguishable from the Theoanthropos..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200607221655.k6MGtQ5W050768@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T16:55:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607212351l38f32cc7v474cb49827921696@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:51:16 +1000 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \n wrote:\nFrankly, I think Wolfe kind of wrote himself into a\ncorner here -- by having Urth's history _so_ parallel to\nEarths, he put himself in a position where there _had_\nto be something indistinguishable from the Christian\nChurch. But the Incarnation has to be an _utterly_\nunique event (says Christian theology). So the \"man\npossessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" who winds\nup getting crucified (in Silk's vision) is historically\nindistinguishable from the Theoanthropos..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Theoanthropos\" is tricky. I think it is only used by Agia, in the \njungle hut scee.\n\nAs far as I know, the usual Chalcedonian term is actually \n\"Theanthropos\". Is Wolfe making some kind of statement, putting the \nformer in bad-girl Agia's mouth? \n\nAt the risk of making a lot out of nothing much, perhaps her term \nshould be read as \"Theo-Anthropos\", man-as-god, rather than the \northodox \"both-man-and-god\" (or whatever: I don't pretend to really \nunderstand the orthodox concept). Kind of appropriate for her, if \nyou believe (as I tend to) that she's connected to the black \nmagicians.\n\nThat aside, my pet theory conforms to some of Dan'l's views; the \nuniverse of NS had no Jesus. For an orthodox Christian, the \nincarnation must surely be a unique event, changing everything. God \nis outside,in NS; when he incarnates and enters inside, it must \nchange everything. Not least, it must end the whole cycle of \nuniverses, and fix one - ours - as the only reality, now with a \ndefinite beginning & definite end.\n\nI differ from Dan'l in thinking that Silk's universe is in fact \nours; the Outsider whispering in Silk's ears on the ballcourt is \nthe echo of the incarnation, out of the distant past, but (I like \nto think) happening at the same instant from the Outsider's extra-\nuniversal point of view. So I think Silk sees the actual, unique \nJesus in his visions. \n\nWhen Silk meets Sev, it is not in the universe of NS, but in this \nnew one, in which Sev's future will differ radically from the NS \nstory. \n\nAnyway, it makes sense to me :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20060722172630.7419.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T17:26:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<200607221655.k6MGtQ5W050768@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\n For an orthodox" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christian, the \nincarnation must surely be a unique event, changing\neverything. God \nis outside,in NS; when he incarnates and enters\ninside, it must \nchange everything. Not least, it must end the whole\ncycle of \nuniverses, and fix one - ours - as the only reality,\nnow with a \ndefinite beginning & definite end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps that is what Inire meant in his letter to Sev.\nabout convincing his cousins (other hierodules) to\nsupport them in particular. That passage has always\nbeen puzzling to me. Sorry I don't have my books to\npoint it out, but it's right after Severian becomes\nautarch.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44C2A5A1.5030702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T22:24:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607212351l38f32cc7v474cb49827921696@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 7/21/06, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If there was no Incarnation, who was Crucified?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The son of Joseph and Mary, who was both enlightened\nand possessed by the Outsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How can we tell the difference?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since it's fiction, we don't have to 8*)\n\nFrankly, I think Wolfe kind of wrote himself into a\ncorner here -- by having Urth's history _so_ parallel to\nEarths, he put himself in a position where there _had_\nto be something indistinguishable from the Christian\nChurch. But the Incarnation has to be an _utterly_\nunique event (says Christian theology). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Revelations provides for at least a second Incarnation. Meanwhile, the \nscripturally unique Flood *is* duplicated by the author." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the \"man\npossessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" who winds\nup getting crucified (in Silk's vision) is historically\nindistinguishable from the Theoanthropos..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That sounds too close to a suggestion that belief in Christ's divine \nnature is unnecessary to have been intentional on Gene Wolfe's part." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001a01c6ae13$483b5f20$9a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-23T04:48:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607201034k17f314dfnc9d8a3a95634d792@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nAn Earth book (Bible) is quoted from and we see a\nyellow sun and an airplane." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only other place I know of in BoTNS where an Earth book is quoted is L.\nCarroll's Through The Looking Glass, in the Antechamber, by Jonas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are other Earth books quoted in the Urth Cycle. Iirc, someone,\nsomewhere, has listed them. Mantis mentions the line from Marlowe's FAUSTUS\n(CLAW, chapter XXVIII) in the \"brown book\" entry in his LEXICON URTHUS, as\nwell as an URTH quote from Genesis 37:9.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607222241u181d818fw8bf815f9dd5741c5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T05:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<200607221655.k6MGtQ5W050768@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a really interesting take. I like it. I'll\nhave to give it some thought." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/22/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\n\nOn Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:51:16 +1000 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Frankly, I think Wolfe kind of wrote himself into a\ncorner here -- by having Urth's history _so_ parallel to\nEarths, he put himself in a position where there _had_\nto be something indistinguishable from the Christian\nChurch. But the Incarnation has to be an _utterly_\nunique event (says Christian theology). So the \"man\npossessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" who winds\nup getting crucified (in Silk's vision) is historically\nindistinguishable from the Theoanthropos..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Theoanthropos\" is tricky. I think it is only used by Agia, in the\njungle hut scee.\n\nAs far as I know, the usual Chalcedonian term is actually\n\"Theanthropos\". Is Wolfe making some kind of statement, putting the\nformer in bad-girl Agia's mouth?\n\nAt the risk of making a lot out of nothing much, perhaps her term\nshould be read as \"Theo-Anthropos\", man-as-god, rather than the\northodox \"both-man-and-god\" (or whatever: I don't pretend to really\nunderstand the orthodox concept). Kind of appropriate for her, if\nyou believe (as I tend to) that she's connected to the black\nmagicians.\n\nThat aside, my pet theory conforms to some of Dan'l's views; the\nuniverse of NS had no Jesus. For an orthodox Christian, the\nincarnation must surely be a unique event, changing everything. God\nis outside,in NS; when he incarnates and enters inside, it must\nchange everything. Not least, it must end the whole cycle of\nuniverses, and fix one - ours - as the only reality, now with a\ndefinite beginning & definite end.\n\nI differ from Dan'l in thinking that Silk's universe is in fact\nours; the Outsider whispering in Silk's ears on the ballcourt is\nthe echo of the incarnation, out of the distant past, but (I like\nto think) happening at the same instant from the Outsider's extra-\nuniversal point of view. So I think Silk sees the actual, unique\nJesus in his visions.\n\nWhen Silk meets Sev, it is not in the universe of NS, but in this\nnew one, in which Sev's future will differ radically from the NS\nstory.\n\nAnyway, it makes sense to me :)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T10:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607222241u181d818fw8bf815f9dd5741c5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if I recall correctly the scriptures of Silk's church have all been \nlifted by Typhon from previous religions. And it seems to me there were \nsnippets of new testament passages in there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a really interesting take. I like it. I'll\nhave to give it some thought.\n\nOn 7/22/06, thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:51:16 +1000 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Frankly, I think Wolfe kind of wrote himself into a\ncorner here -- by having Urth's history _so_ parallel to\nEarths, he put himself in a position where there _had_\nto be something indistinguishable from the Christian\nChurch. But the Incarnation has to be an _utterly_\nunique event (says Christian theology). So the \"man\npossessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" who winds\nup getting crucified (in Silk's vision) is historically\nindistinguishable from the Theoanthropos..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Theoanthropos\" is tricky. I think it is only used by Agia, in the\njungle hut scee.\n\nAs far as I know, the usual Chalcedonian term is actually\n\"Theanthropos\". Is Wolfe making some kind of statement, putting the\nformer in bad-girl Agia's mouth?\n\nAt the risk of making a lot out of nothing much, perhaps her term\nshould be read as \"Theo-Anthropos\", man-as-god, rather than the\northodox \"both-man-and-god\" (or whatever: I don't pretend to really\nunderstand the orthodox concept). Kind of appropriate for her, if\nyou believe (as I tend to) that she's connected to the black\nmagicians.\n\nThat aside, my pet theory conforms to some of Dan'l's views; the\nuniverse of NS had no Jesus. For an orthodox Christian, the\nincarnation must surely be a unique event, changing everything. God\nis outside,in NS; when he incarnates and enters inside, it must\nchange everything. Not least, it must end the whole cycle of\nuniverses, and fix one - ours - as the only reality, now with a\ndefinite beginning & definite end.\n\nI differ from Dan'l in thinking that Silk's universe is in fact\nours; the Outsider whispering in Silk's ears on the ballcourt is\nthe echo of the incarnation, out of the distant past, but (I like\nto think) happening at the same instant from the Outsider's extra-\nuniversal point of view. So I think Silk sees the actual, unique\nJesus in his visions.\n\nWhen Silk meets Sev, it is not in the universe of NS, but in this\nnew one, in which Sev's future will differ radically from the NS\nstory.\n\nAnyway, it makes sense to me :)\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T14:24:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "<001a01c6ae13$483b5f20$9a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are other Earth books quoted in the Urth Cycle. Iirc, someone, \nsomewhere, has listed >them. Mantis mentions the line from Marlowe's \nFAUSTUS (CLAW, chapter XXVIII) in the \"brown >book\" entry in his LEXICON \nURTHUS, as well as an URTH quote from Genesis 37:9." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any further help in finding the list would be appreciated. Genesis 37:9 is \nabout Joseph and reads:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then he had another dream, and this one, too, he told to his brothers. \"I \nhad another dream,\" he >said; \"this time, the sun and the moon and eleven \nstars were bowing down to me.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't even find that in Urth. It surely is important. Help!\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607231006p34f93582hc727dac0d1e49198@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-23T17:06:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/23/06, Chris wrote:\nBut if I recall correctly the scriptures of Silk's church have all been\nlifted by Typhon from previous religions. And it seems to me there were\nsnippets of new testament passages in there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I definitely recall an OT passage -- the one Oreb's name is taken\nfrom. Can't think of a NT passage, but it's been a couple of years." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c6ae85$093cc9e0$aa3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-23T18:22:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Earth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nGenesis 37:9 is\nabout Joseph and reads:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then he had another dream, and this one, too, he told to his brothers. \"I\nhad another dream,\" he >said; \"this time, the sun and the moon and eleven\nstars were bowing down to me.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't even find that in Urth. It surely is important. Help!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Page 267. This line immediately follows the biblical quote:\n\n\"Its words show plainly how much wiser the peoples of ages\nlong past were than we are now; not for nothing is that\nbook titled _The Book of the Wonders of Urth and Sky_.\"\n\nSeverian had memorized the entire brown book. His words indicate to me that\nEarth is unquestionably in Urth's past.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }