{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4663", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4663, "subject": "Urth before Urth", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2006-07-19T19:00:07+00:00", "last": "2006-07-20T04:10:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-19T19:00:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Urth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l, thanks for the feedback. It is always appreciated, especially when \ngiven with insight. I think we are in agreement on these issues except at \ntwo points.\n\nDan'l suggests:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the universal singularity at the moment between cycles is the only place \nwhere you can actually >break out of Briah and into Yesod" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I think Inire's mirrors and the Jungle Hut are other options. The \nmirrors are clearly a transport method as well as viewing instrument. And \nthe Jungle Hut might allow physical transportation, especially if Isangoma \nis Inire.\n\nDan'l makes it clear he agree that Earth is in Urth's future..but...not in \nYesod, still in Briah.\n\nI just found a James Jordan/Gene Wolfe interview quote which supports Earth \nbeing in Urth's future: \n(http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html#urth2)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: This universe that you sought in Briah are part of it. Is that our \nuniverse? Or is that a universe >that resurrected saints have set up in the \nworld to come as part of the cities that they made?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are \nrepeating rather than >something that we are" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe also says, regarding his thinking on Urth cycles:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I began with the idea of what is going to happen to us if we just keep \ngoing the way we are >going and continue to live on the continent of Earth \nwithout ever really going into the sea or >going into space and we just \nwait for the money to run out. The do nothing future and thinking >about \nwhat that would be. And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And \ndecided that I >would show that this might be a past cycle. Some physicists \nat least think that the Big Bang is >eventually going to be followed by a \nBig Gnab in which the whole universe coalesces again which >will be \nfollowed by another Big Bang which is sort of like a succession of universe \nas piston impulses >in an internal combustion engine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Earth is just a part of a future Briah, separate from Yesod, then I think \nsomething is missing, which is progress. I sense that spiritual progress is \nsomething Wolfe considers important (more interview quotes support this). \nWhat good is it for Briah or other universe residents to go through all \ntheir struggles and progress only to collapse and disappear, only to have \nthe same universe reappear with the same deck of cards shuffled a bit? The \nHieros made it from Briah to Yesod, becoming higher beings, later returning \nto Briah to help out (purify? more on the contamination later) their cognate \nrace and creators.\n\nI like Mantis' idea of a hierarchy of 3 universes we are able to perceive in \nBotNS, a hellish Abaddon, Severian's Briah and a heavenly Yesod and see it \nsupported in the text. If Inire's mirrors access Yesod, then we can guess \nwhat universe Hethor's mirrors access...\n\nOn Thu, 22 Apr 1999 Moonmilk Archives, Nick Gevers criticized Mantis' \nuniversal scheme in this post:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0026/0003.shtml by invoking strict \nKabbalistic interpretations.\n\nI appreciate Gevers' scholarship but...in the same interview as above, Gene \nWolfe says this (with a couple snips):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to try to answer questions on the cabala. I never knew a great \ndeal about it and I >have forgotten most of what I knew. I have the great \ndisadvantage of not believing in it and so I >can't get so caught up in it \nas cabalist really do. To me it was someplace that I could steal ideas >and \nnames from." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I noticed this quote a while back and have, thererfore, avoided looking too \ndeeply into Kabbalah concepts to explain BotNS and am a bit skeptical \nregarding those who do. There is another, non-cosmological, Kabbalistic \ntheme Wolfe borrows which I haven't seen mentioned by any critical review, \nthat being the Lilith myth. I think I hinted at that a month or two ago but \nI'm not sure. I'll try to discuss it if I can gel my ideas and if there is \nany interest.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607191424v4964daf4se874e450f5651b86@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-19T21:24:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "B," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l suggests:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the universal singularity at the moment between cycles is the only place\nwhere you can actually >break out of Briah and into Yesod" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant to write \"...where you can _easily_ break out...\", so\nwe are more in agreement than you thought! Clearly there\nis a reason why Zak's Ship goes all that way rather than using\nbig mirrors (they certainly wouldn't have to be as big as the\nsunsails!): I suggest that it's because it's much easier, esp.\nfor a vehicle which needs mobility -- the setup of the mirrors\nseems to require excruciatingly exact angles, etc., which\nwould be hard to do on anything independently mobile.\n\nI'm not at all sure what's up with the Jungle Hut, or the\nGardens in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Earth is just a part of a future Briah, separate from Yesod,\nthen I think something is missing, which is progress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed it is! The Hieros are trapped in an unending cycle\nof Big Bang/Grand Gnab where they and the human race\nalternate creating and uplifting each other, but no real\nprogress is possible. In Wolfe's (that is to say, Christian)\nterms, real progress is possibly only through divine\nintervention: which happens on an individual level for\nspecific people, and happens on a universal level in the\nEarth cycle of Briah, with the birth and sacrifice of the\n\"Theoanthropos,\" i.e., Christ. The cycles are so similar\nfrom one to the next that one of the \"paintings\" in the\nGallery is a near-exact copy of the famous photograph\nof Armstrong saluting the flag on the Moon; which also\nimplies that the Incarnation _doesn't change outward\nhistory notably._ Just as there have been previous\nSeverians, there have been previous Jesuses; the\nJesus of the Urth cycle of Briah may well be \"the man\npossessed and enlightened by the Outsider\" that Silk\nsees during his enlightenment. (Clearly, the Bible,\nmore or less as we know it, was written in that cycle,\nsince it's quoted repeatedly in the Sun books.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What good is it for Briah or other universe residents to go\nthrough all their struggles and progress only to collapse and\ndisappear, only to have the same universe reappear with the\nsame deck of cards shuffled a bit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... or even not at all?\n\nOne could as easily ask of Christianity, \"What was the point\nof all the rises and falls, the triumphs and sufferings, of the\nnation of Israel?\" From the Christian standpoint, it appears\nto have been \"to prove that fallen humanity is not perfectable\nwithout the direct intervention of the Increate, that even a\nperfect Law can not save humanity, only grace.\" Could a similar\ndemonstration be going on here on a grand scale, one\nappropriate to Hiero-beings whose schemes cross the\nboundaries from one cycle of Briah to the next?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Hieros made it from Briah to Yesod, becoming higher\nbeings, later returning to Briah to help out (purify? more on\nthe contamination later) their cognate race and creators." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suggest that the Hieros are _not_ perfected beings any\nmore than humans are. \"Higher,\" yes, in the same sense\nthat Israel under the Law was \"higher\" than (say) Egypt\nor Babylon -- but still infinitely far from the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like Mantis' idea of a hierarchy of 3 universes we are able\nto perceive in BotNS, a hellish Abaddon, Severian's Briah\nand a heavenly Yesod and see it supported in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As do I. And there may, of course, be others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't want to try to answer questions on the cabala. I never\nknew a great deal about it and I have forgotten most of what\nI knew. ...To me it was someplace that I could steal ideas\nand names from." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How shall I put this... Wolfe is sometimes a bit, ahhh,\n_disingenuous_ about such things. Note please that he\n\"stole\" not only names but ideas; ergo, he had at least\nsome knowledge of the meaning of the names he \"stole.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I noticed this quote a while back and have, thererfore, avoided\nlooking too deeply into Kabbalah concepts to explain BotNS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reasonable. I am certainly not suggesting that we try to\nwork up the numerology of each character's name (which\nwould begin by transliterating the names into Hebrew\ncharacters, naturlich); rather, I am suggesting that Wolfe's\nRule of Names applies. A thing's name says what it is. I\ndon't for a moment think Wolfe didn't know what Briah and\nYesod meant when he chose to use them; a too-literal\nreading of the quote in question would imply that Wolfe\nwas a far more slapdash and erratic writer than I am for a\nmoment willing to believe, for it's asking me to believe that,\nin a book where he carefully considered the historical and\nmythological significance of every _other_ person, place,\nand thing, he just tossed in a couple of names that sounded\ngood ... for _universes_.\n\nPull the other one, Gene: it's got bells on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is another, non-cosmological, Kabbalistic theme\nWolfe borrows which I haven't seen mentioned by any\ncritical review, that being the Lilith myth. I think I hinted\nat that a month or two ago but I'm not sure. I'll try to\ndiscuss it if I can gel my ideas and if there is any interest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'll be looking forward to it. I've always had a\nvague idea that the lamia were hiding in there somewhere\nnear the alzabo; Lilith is a similar being." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0FEFEDDE-8DE8-4BE4-B04D-EE88B3ADA1FD@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T04:10:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth before Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 19, 2006, at 12:00 PM, b sharp wrote:\nI like Mantis' idea of a hierarchy of 3 universes we are able to \nperceive in\nBotNS, a hellish Abaddon, Severian's Briah and a heavenly Yesod and \nsee it\nsupported in the text. If Inire's mirrors access Yesod, then we \ncan guess\nwhat universe Hethor's mirrors access..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why stop at 3? We get 7 in WK....\n\nAdam" } ] } ] }