{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4666", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4666, "subject": "General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth before\n\tEarth)", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-07-20T17:26:04+00:00", "last": "2006-07-22T06:48:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1f7617370607201026u2647cfd4p8028cf6d9a8c94a7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T17:26:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth before\n\tEarth)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not going to try to reply to B's latest right now -- depression\nhas drained me of energy -- but I do have a general observation\nto make, which was inspired by said post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/06, b sharp wrote:\n... the Armstrong painting is one more by Fechin/Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've come to realize that Wolfe interpreters tend to develop\ncertain ... for want of a better word (obsession seems a\ntouch too strong) crochets. I recognize two of my own: a\ntendency to see Christian/Catholic themes everywhere,\nand a belief that Wolfe is too tricksy for his own good. Others\nhave harbored crochets about sentient trees, twin planets,\nand so on.\n\nOne of yours seems to be seeing Father Inire in every\nshadow..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44BFC0FD.6090500@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2006-07-20T17:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth\n before Earth)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607201026u2647cfd4p8028cf6d9a8c94a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'm not going to try to reply to B's latest right now -- depression\nhas drained me of energy -- but I do have a general observation\nto make, which was inspired by said post.\n\nOn 7/19/06, b sharp wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... the Armstrong painting is one more by Fechin/Inire.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've come to realize that Wolfe interpreters tend to develop\ncertain ... for want of a better word (obsession seems a\ntouch too strong) crochets. I recognize two of my own: a\ntendency to see Christian/Catholic themes everywhere,\nand a belief that Wolfe is too tricksy for his own good. Others\nhave harbored crochets about sentient trees, twin planets,\nand so on.\n\nOne of yours seems to be seeing Father Inire in every\nshadow...\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we hadn't developed these 'crochets' I doubt we'd be subscribers to \nthis list. I'd much rather see these possibilities and readings pursued \n(supported in some way, of course) and argued than limited or dismissed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607201053n59e34425na79507bc1702c274@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T17:53:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth\n\tbefore Earth)", "in_reply_to": "<44BFC0FD.6090500@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/20/06, JWillard wrote:\nIf we hadn't developed these 'crochets' I doubt we'd be subscribers\nto this list. I'd much rather see these possibilities and readings\npursued (supported in some way, of course) and argued than\nlimited or dismissed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't suggesting that they should be \"limited or dismissed.\"\n\nRather, that we should take account of them, both in ourselves and\nin other posters, as they emerge. Thus, I'm certainly not about to\ndismiss B's suggestion that Fechin is Father Inire, but neither am\nI simply accepting it; I would want to see it, as you say, supported,\nby clear textual evidence (rather than \"it fits the overall pattern\"\n-- _unless_ the pattern is already _overwhelmingly_ established)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T19:09:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth\n\tbefore Earth)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607201026u2647cfd4p8028cf6d9a8c94a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've come to realize that Wolfe interpreters tend to develop\ncertain ... for want of a better word (obsession seems a\ntouch too strong) crochets. I recognize two of my own: a\ntendency to see Christian/Catholic themes everywhere,\nand a belief that Wolfe is too tricksy for his own good. Others\nhave harbored crochets about sentient trees, twin planets,\nand so on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty funny. I just read Peace and two of the things I am \nreally stuck on about it are the fallen tree at the beginning of the \nbook, and the part where Alden and Margaret are in the barn looking \nfor the egg and Margaret mentions that it has the face of Jesus on \nit, and is Alden worried about it being under a hen because he is \nafraid it might hatch. :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-21T12:45:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth before\n\tEarth)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Coming from a scientific background, I agree with both JWillard and Dan'l. \nPeople should pursue their own theories but temper them with an awareness of \nhow personal bias can be misleading. After you've done your best to make an \nobjective analysis, submit your ideas to peer review for further refinement \nor rejection. I've refined and rejected plenty of my own ideas based on the \nfeedback I've received here and I hope to continue the process.\n\nRegarding Father Inire, I've always wondered about him, but if you'd asked \nme a year ago I would have said I thought his only appearance is as the \ncowled servitor who guides Severian to the thiasus. As I started reading \ncritical analyses of BotNS this year, Robert Borski and a couple others \nseemed to find a bunch of Inire appearances. Pursuing that line of thought \nmyself has finally shed a light on what I've always thought of as the \ncentral mystery of this series- Severian's family tree.\n\nBorski seems to view Inire as a Moses-like guide for the people of Urth, \nguiding them to the promised land of Ushas (hmph, some salvation). I don't \nagree; there are plenty of clues that Father Inire and the Cumaean do not \nhave humanity's best interests at heart. Nor do I agree that Ossipago and \nPalaemon and Ceryx are Inire or that the couple that are landed on Urth on \nFlood Day are Inire and the Cumaean etc. etc. A lot of disagreement. But if \nBorski had just kept his ideas to himself I would have lost a valuable \ninspiration.\n\nDan'l says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm certainly not about to dismiss B's suggestion that Fechin is Father \nInire, but neither am\nI simply accepting it; I would want to see it, as you say, supported, by \nclear textual evidence (rather than \"it fits the overall pattern\"-- \n_unless_ the pattern is already _overwhelmingly_ >established)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Consider Inire, Fechin, Rudesind and the boatman. Fechin and Rudesind are \nconnected by art. Rudesind and Inire are connected through the Curator \nguild. The boatman and Inire are connected by the Botanic Gardens. Rudesind \nand the boatman are connected by similar speech patterns and being widowers. \n Fechin and the boatman (and Ouen's father) are always losing their \nmaterial possessions. Fechin, the boatman and Inire all show an interest in \npretty young girls. Fechin, Inire and Rudesind all resemble monkeys.\n\nThe pattern may not be overwhelming but I can't ignore that these four guys \nmight be related. Would all these connections appear accidentally in Gene \nWolfe's work? If the relationship illuminates obscured portions of \nSeverian's family tree, I really can't ignore it. Others, especially those \nnot so interested in the family tree, probabaly can ignore it and that's \nokay. But to me, the family tree seems so important and I haven't seen any \ngood, complete models for it. Anyone familiar with a Severian family tree \nI'm not aware of?\n\nI have my own model for most of Severian's full family tree (still a couple \nvague spots, I'm afraid), and I think it (along with Eschatology and \nGenesis) explains why the destruction of Urth and creation of Ushas was \nnecessary. I was considering submitting another essay to Ultan's Library on \nthis, though my first test attempt at that was such a failure and wasted two \nmonths. But one way or another I'll get these ideas out eventually.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607211119u51abd5e8kd7f6e64e4e907662@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-21T18:19:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urth\n\tbefore Earth)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "B writes...\n\n... after some stuff I generally agree with on method ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding Father Inire, I've always wondered about him, but if you'd\nasked me a year ago I would have said I thought his only appearance\nis as the cowled servitor who guides Severian to the thiasus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now, you see, I'm not even convinced of _that_ (though, as\nalways, I'm willing to be convinced). I think Father Inire is a\ndeliberate (on Wolfe's part) _absence_ in the BotNs. Play with\npresence/absence seems to me to be part of the Book's overall\nthematic. Thecla is the absence who is always present with\nSeverian (even before the alzabo feast); I suspect that Inire is\nthe presence who is always absent, someone who always has\ninfluence on every event but is never present at any event.\n\nRobert Borski's theorizing is always fascinating, but there are\ntimes when I think he is deliberately seeing how far he can\npush things rather than following any strict textual method." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".... a light on what I've always thought of as the\ncentral mystery of this series- Severian's family tree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, certainly _a_ central mystery. We have reasonable certainty\nof the identity of his mother and maternal grandparents, but his\npaternal line seems pretty obscure. Candidates seem to include\nFather (thus the name, hint hint) Inire, the Autarch, one of the\nMasters of the Guild, and -- in the \"send in the clones\" scenario\n-- Typhon, or perhaps more accurately Typhon's father, and probably\nall sorts of people I haven't named. Vodalus? Why not?\n\nI'd love to see some serious _textual_ evidence for _someone_\nas Sev's father! I'd be particularly interested if (as you say) it\nhelps explain why the eschatus and regenesis were necessary.\n\nNote: I don't put much trust in thematic evidence without a clear\ntextual basis for it. If I can see a nearly-complete pattern in the\ntext that supports a theme, and X, though there's no direct\nevidence for it, is the only element that fits the pattern, well,\nthat's a special case.\n\nAs, of course, are _my_ thematic theories. 8*)\n\nSo anyway, the pattern you establish later in your note -- about\nInire, Fechin, Rudesind and the boatman -- is fine as far as it goes,\nbut it's all based on a pattern that seems to me to be perceived\nbefore the fact, and the characters assigned to the pattern. I'd need\nto see that the pattern was present in the text waiting to be\ndiscovered, and I just don't see that.\n\nI mean -- are they \"connected\" by these various things? Of course;\nbut being connected by some thematic link doesn't mean they're\nthe same person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Borski seems to view Inire as a Moses-like guide for the people of Urth,\nguiding them to the promised land of Ushas (hmph, some salvation)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Keep in mind that the entire generation of Israelites Moses led out\nof Egypt died in the desert without so much as a glimpse of the\nPromised Land. The cost of Ushas is very like that paid by the\nIsraelites." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000801c6ad34$d51ba060$b03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2006-07-22T02:16:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urthbefore\n\tEarth)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370607211119u51abd5e8kd7f6e64e4e907662@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l quoted and wrote:\n.... a light on what I've always thought of as the\ncentral mystery of this series- Severian's family tree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, certainly _a_ central mystery. We have reasonable certainty\nof the identity of his mother and maternal grandparents, but his\npaternal line seems pretty obscure. Candidates seem to include\nFather (thus the name, hint hint) Inire, the Autarch, one of the\nMasters of the Guild, and -- in the \"send in the clones\" scenario\n-- Typhon, or perhaps more accurately Typhon's father, and probably\nall sorts of people I haven't named. Vodalus? Why not?\n\nI'd love to see some serious _textual_ evidence for _someone_\nas Sev's father!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you having some \"senior moments\" a tad early? Or you just don't\naccept Ouen as Sev's father? Dorcas wasn't Sev's grandmother?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T05:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urthbefore\n\tEarth)", "in_reply_to": "<000801c6ad34$d51ba060$b03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this exchange between Dan'l and Roy very interesting:\n\nDan'l:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd love to see some serious _textual_ evidence for _someone_as Sev's \nfather!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you having some \"senior moments\" a tad early? Or you just \ndon'taccept Ouen as Sev's >father? Dorcas wasn't Sev's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First I think the Lupinology world has a enough accepted dogma for most of \nus to conclude Dan'l really was having a \"senior moment\" and he meant he'd \nlike evidence for someone as Sev's maternal grandfather. The acceptance of \nOuen as father, Dorcas as paternal grandmother and boatman or \"Charon\" as \npaternal grandfather are almost articles of faith.\n\nOr could Dan'l really be out-skepticizing Roy here by denying Ouen's \npaternity? Dan'l?\n\nWe often hear demands for clear texual evidence to support a claim, but we \ndon't have that for Ouen and Dorcas. All we have is a fat guy who sees a \nphysical resemblance between a dark haired guy, a young blonde woman and an \nold waiter who all chanced to meet at a restaurant. And let's not forget \nthe woman's portrait in a locket...found by Ouen in a pawn shop for crying \nout loud. Can we be sure that picture is really his mother and not a \nsurrogate purchased to console him in his loss? (well, yes we can be pretty \nsure, but why?)\n\nIn the absence of clear, distinct text evidence, why does EVERYBODY (even my \nbrother who only read BotNS once) understand who Ouen and Dorcas are? I \nthink the answer is that BotNS is like a big jigsaw puzzle without a cover \nbox. You start by assembling piece by piece. But you don't really make \nprogress until a pattern appears and you can start filling in empty spaces \nintuitively without the text telling you exactly where the next pieces fit. \nSome patterns are easier to see than others and some patterns are seen by \nsome and not others.\n\nAnd it is a near universally understood pattern that when family members are \nmissing and physical resemblances are presented for no apparent reason we \nare expected (by the author) to jump to certain conclusions without direct \nevidence. A physical resemblance and the name Catherine leads many to \nassume an actress that plays Katherine is Severian's mother. This is an \neven bigger intuitive leap than the Ouen/Dorcas assumption but I haven't \nseen a lot of argument about that since back when J. Clute suggested the old \nAutarch, Appian in that role.\n\nIn the future, sometime I'll be arguing that Catherine and Cyriaca are \nsisters, that Severian's paternal grandfather and Catherine's father are the \nsame person and that Thecla's four books and Agia's four weapons help place \neach of them in Severian's family tree. And I won't be able point to text \nwhich says exactly those things but I will show a certain pattern these help \nfill and, the intuitive leaps I had to make to fill them. This pattern \nwhich ties to what I think is the overarching theme of BotNS (noted below). \nIt won't be of much use to many Lupinologists but maybe to some who also \nperceive that same theme.\n\nI would like to propose that knowledge of BotNS has progressed to the point \nwhere it can be judged sort of scientifically. By that I mean that (like in \nscience) nothing can ever be \"proven\" (unless Gene Wolfe decides to speak \ncandidly before he passes on) so all we have are working theories. \nCompeting theories. The one (or ones) which explain best to the most people \nis accepted.\n\nNaturally there will be divided camps and competing theories but I still \nthink constructive criticism of a theory should always explain why a \ncompeting theory seems better. It may be that Peter Wright will always view \nthe BotNS pattern in terms of Socialist Political Theory. For Robert Borski \nand others it might be a Moses tale. For Dan'l and others, Catholic themes \nprevail. But each framework might speak to many other people and there \nmight be enough overlap that theories in one perceived pattern could assist \nthose in another.\n\nIn recent months my own framework reference has come to agreement with Nick \nGevers who observes that," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Wolfe has a fascination with paganism and the rise of Christianity that \neclipsed it, and has worked >this into a series of related epics: The Book \nof the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm hoping to discuss how important portions of BotNS relate to this theme \n(including the family tree), if I can find a way to break it into the \nbite-sized chunks this format requires. Wish me luck!\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370607212348g7db5efbai4216191cb9ba1d11@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-22T06:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) General Observation on Lupinologists (was Re: Urthbefore\n\tEarth)", "in_reply_to": "<000801c6ad34$d51ba060$b03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you having some \"senior moments\" a tad early? \nOr you just don't accept Ouen as Sev's father? Dorcas\nwasn't Sev's grandmother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aaaargh. You're right, I just spaced on that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\"Shovels are essential to the fantasy genre.\nHowever, they are primarily used by the authors rather than the\ncharacters.\" -- Stephen R. Donaldson" } ] } ] }