{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4667", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4667, "subject": "Famous monsters", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2006-07-20T18:13:12+00:00", "last": "2006-07-21T13:13:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000001c6ac28$29a3ae60$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-07-20T18:13:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Famous monsters", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nin The Sword of the \nLictor,chapter XXXV, Dr Talos alludes to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnd b_sharp:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I think Talos' statement refers to the legend Llibio has recently\ntold \nSeverian, about a small man from the south and the building of the\ncastle \nand an evil giant, a legend which Severian has just told Talos. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's definitely Frankenstein :-) . Dr Talos says \"our own shadows\nrace into the past to trouble mankind's dreams.\" What's the one thing\neveryone knows about the writing of Frankenstein? That the idea came to\nMary Shelley in a troubled dream.\n\nWhere did Mary Shelley have this dream? In a villa on the shore of a\nbeautiful lake. Where are Dr Talos, Severian and Baldanders? On the\nshore of a beautiful lake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Talos \nwas really refering directly to the Frankenstein book then he is saying\nthe \nBaldanders story travelled back in time to Mary Shelly; then we are\nagain \nsaying Earth is in the past of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly that *an* Earth is in the past of Urth, yes. A world quite\nexcruciating similar to ours in all sorts of ways. For my money it *is*\nour Earth, but that's an argument for a different post. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2006-07-21T00:08:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Famous monsters", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6ac28$29a3ae60$6501a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 20 Jul 2006, Tony Ellis wrote:\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in The Sword of the\nLictor,chapter XXXV, Dr Talos alludes to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And b_sharp:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I think Talos' statement refers to the legend Llibio has recently" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, it's definitely Frankenstein :-) . Dr Talos says \"our own shadows\nrace into the past to trouble mankind's dreams.\" What's the one thing" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see this also as a nod to _Childhood's End_\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-07-21T13:13:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Famous monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding Dr. Talos' allusion, Tony Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, it's definitely Frankenstein :-) . Dr Talos says \"our own shadowsrace \ninto the past to trouble >mankind's dreams.\" What's the one thing everyone \nknows about the writing of Frankenstein? >That the idea came to Mary \nShelley in a troubled dream. Where did Mary Shelley have this dream? >In a \nvilla on the shore of a beautiful lake. Where are Dr Talos, Severian and \nBaldanders? On the\nshore of a beautiful lake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I didn't know about the dream and the villa and the lake. I think \nthat is very interesting and pertinent and appreciate the filling of my \nknowledge gap.\n\nHowever, I let something slide regarding your initial post that I must \naddress now. In the Urth before Earth thread I suggested there were only \ntwo direct quotes from Earth books in BotNS. An allusion is quite a \ndifferent thing. An allusion is a literary device that can allow an author \nto make references directly to the reader without the speaking character \nactually being aware of the reference source.\n\nBut if a character quotes directly from a literary source it means the \ncharacter has actually read (or been exposed to) that source within the \nstoryline. I think there is little doubt that Wolfe is alluding to \nFrankenstein here but I'm not so certain that Dr. Talos has read Mary \nShelley. Shadows of legends and dreams may have passed between them but has \nactual text been shared?\n\nIn contrast, direct quotes suggest that Marie of the Jungle Hut has read The \nBible and Jonas has read Lewis Carroll.\n\nPerhaps I am missing your main point, which is to suggest the \nTalos-Frankenstein passage is evidence that Earth is in Urth's past? If so, \nI agree. However I am currently swayed more by the counter-evidence, e.g. \nthat Marie (and her Bible), found in the upper level of a time structure, is \nin the future.\n\n-bsharp\n\n-bsharp" } ] } ] }