Famous monsters
The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 20 Jul 2006
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4667

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Tony Ellis — 20 Jul 2006, 18:13

> I wrote:
> in The Sword of the 
> Lictor,chapter XXXV, Dr Talos alludes to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

 
And b_sharp:

> But I think Talos' statement refers to the legend Llibio has recently
> told 
> Severian, about a small man from the south and the building of the
> castle 
> and an evil giant, a legend which Severian has just told Talos. 

No, it's definitely Frankenstein :-) . Dr Talos says "our own shadows
race into the past to trouble mankind's dreams." What's the one thing
everyone knows about the writing of Frankenstein? That the idea came to
Mary Shelley in a troubled dream.

Where did Mary Shelley have this dream? In a villa on the shore of a
beautiful lake. Where are Dr Talos, Severian and Baldanders? On the
shore of a beautiful lake.

> If Talos 
> was really refering directly to the Frankenstein book then he is saying
> the 
> Baldanders story travelled back in time to Mary Shelly; then we are
> again 
> saying Earth is in the past of Urth.

Certainly that *an* Earth is in the past of Urth, yes. A world quite
excruciating similar to ours in all sorts of ways. For my money it *is*
our Earth, but that's an argument for a different post. 

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David Duffy — 21 Jul 2006, 00:08
  in reply to Tony Ellis

> On Thu, 20 Jul 2006, Tony Ellis wrote:
> I wrote:

> > in The Sword of the
> > Lictor,chapter XXXV, Dr Talos alludes to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

> And b_sharp:

> > But I think Talos' statement refers to the legend Llibio has recently

> No, it's definitely Frankenstein :-) . Dr Talos says "our own shadows
> race into the past to trouble mankind's dreams." What's the one thing

I see this also as a nod to _Childhood's End_

David Duffy.

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b sharp — 21 Jul 2006, 13:13
  follows, by subject match David Duffy

Regarding Dr. Talos' allusion, Tony Ellis writes:

> No, it's definitely Frankenstein :-) . Dr Talos says "our own shadowsrace 
> into the past to trouble >mankind's dreams." What's the one thing everyone 
> knows about the writing of Frankenstein? >That the idea came to Mary 
> Shelley in a troubled dream. Where did Mary Shelley have this dream? >In a 
> villa on the shore of a beautiful lake. Where are Dr Talos, Severian and 
> Baldanders? On the
> shore of a beautiful lake.

Actually I didn't know about the dream and the villa and the lake.  I think 
that is very interesting and pertinent and appreciate the filling of my 
knowledge gap.

However, I let something slide regarding your initial post that I must 
address now.  In the Urth before Earth thread I suggested there were only 
two direct quotes from Earth books in BotNS.  An allusion is quite a 
different thing.  An allusion is a literary device that can allow an author 
to make references directly to the reader without the speaking character 
actually being aware of the reference source.

But if a character quotes directly from a literary source it means the 
character has actually read (or been exposed to) that source within the 
storyline.  I think there is little doubt that Wolfe is alluding to 
Frankenstein here but I'm not so certain that Dr. Talos has read Mary 
Shelley.  Shadows of legends and dreams may have passed between them but has 
actual text been shared?

In contrast, direct quotes suggest that Marie of the Jungle Hut has read The 
Bible and Jonas has read Lewis Carroll.

Perhaps I am missing your main point, which is to suggest the 
Talos-Frankenstein passage is evidence that Earth is in Urth's past?  If so, 
I agree.  However I am currently swayed more by the counter-evidence, e.g. 
that Marie (and her Bible), found in the upper level of a time structure, is 
in the future.

-bsharp

-bsharp

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